If you want to
Know and Understand
anyone or anything
Suspend
all assumptions
Withdraw
all projections
Abandon
all beliefs
Only then can you
Begin
To learn the Truthof anyone and anything
Only then will you
End
Presumptionsof proof
Author notes
"What is the first business of one who practices
philosophy? To get rid of self-conceit.
For it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows."
~ Epictetus
"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision
for the limits of the world."
~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Written May 27th, 2004
In a list
A contest entry
- Invite Only Round One by Kari.
475 points, ended May 7, 2007, 6 entries
Silver trophy winner
• next poem in this contest, remove from contest
Comments
1 - 46 of 46
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Presumptions and assumptions make for poor understanding. I accept your message and the wisdom of it's author. Wonderful poem with excellent presentation.
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You write alot
about presumption and assumption. I suppose that's very presumptuous of me but I assume you'll presume to press forward assuming all things remain as I presume them to. I assume my presumptions are correct?
Alrighty, then.
Ok, assumption and presumption are my favorites. People are so damned smug and think themselves far wiser than they truly are. Hence, the word "assume" is just "ass" with "u" and "me" thrown into the mix. It's a good way for everyone to look the ass. Assumption and presumption project, they are intrusions into reality without so much as a care to ask just what is truly the situation at hand. They bust down the door like two jack-booted bail-bondsmen in pompous pistol-whipping fury with all their bombastic accusatory rhetoric. You, sitting stunned and having been quite busy with other important matters, get up, flush, and wonder why the Hell they couldn't ring the doorbell and let you take care of business before trying to take care of your $#!+ for you. You recompose, then instruct them that the jailbird is two houses down in the striped shirt dragging the ball and chain. They leave in a ragged rush, your door ajar and sagging from it's hinges whilst the asses brush past you and me to the next fresh piece of meat, never bothering to apologize or consider that their actions are highly insulting to the point of the insultee wanting a rampage of his own. But he doesn't. Because well, assuming is quite rude when all you have to do is ask the person right in front of you. No one needs to be an ass, least of all me.
So hey, that said, I thought this was a good reminder to not engage in the above-mentioned behavior. Yeah...that'd be good.
Very good message.
al
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Wow this poem is gorgeous!
It's been a long while since I read your work..i apologise but now...just reading this just makes me remember how great and really talented you are...this is a clever and beautiful write..so amazing..so dashing!
If you want to
Know and Understand
anyone or anything
Suspend
all assumptions
Withdraw
all projections
Abandon
all beliefs
this part above just bites!
Fantabulous write!
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WOW
i am a bit in awe of this write. thank you for sharing it with me. congratulations on the silver trophy you have earned. viyanna rosemarie
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Awesome!
WOW this was wonderful.It was very in depth. You did a incredible job.Thanks so much for sharing this with us!
Kari -
If anybody wants the definition of equillibrium, I shall guide them to this poem. Lovely eveness about this poem with added wisdom. Its got to have an applause! By abandoning beliefs you become quite instinctive to surroundings, and that too is a great thing!
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AWESOME JOB!!!!! ENJOYED IT!!!!!
This is profound with-in it's meaning, and the message is clearly understood.....
Another great write you have here, I thank you for sharing.....
Be blessed with love and light.....
as always,
AngelicMistress
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FAB!!!
What a BEAUTIFUL choice of words!!! Really well written. This write has made sure that I'll be reading more of your poems. Very well written. I applaud you. -
good work
to speak upon a clean slate, yes it does help often to meet new people in thus way, but often wether it be your own personal reasons, or those of your surroundings, it is often hard for first impressions not to be hindered by outward impressions, I like this piece, because it gives one the idea, that they should set aside those outward impressions, and try to relate better with the person, or such. I don't know to many diffrent examples of such things, but I do recall, when I am trying to figure out someone, or why they are doing what they do, I try to restrain what bias I hold towards them, then try to think why they think the way they do, it is odd, but this is also quite alike the topic of this piece. I am quite intrested in your work, and will continue to try and read more, I thank you for your blessing upon this world with your art, I hope you continue to bless it as such. -
Thanks so much Maatkara. This poem is everything I needed.
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The first stanza seems to be a very succinct description of the "beginner's mind". Another way of saying it which I hear a lot now is "question everything". We can go very deep with our questions, even whether our senses report reality, and if they do, is that all there is?
Once you throw away the old assumptions, you need new information. There is a lot of reality, even scientific investigation, which is not taught, because it challenges common knowledge and common sense. That makes me want to know more.
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It's a little tricky at the end, but I think I understand. It's a great write on the first stanza alone.
Andy -
Thanks W!
Of course it is not "impossible", that is an 'assumption'. Remember I did not say abandon all knowledge; 'beliefs' are not knowledge (though many confuse them). 
~G
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Before I can know..I must unknow! Whoa, this is too deep, not only does it shift my paradigm, it scratches my head. (Hehehe)
What you propose of course is impossible, but so much thought fodder, I gained weight just reading it. (smiles) -
I thought perhaps it was relevant because a question of the existence, or otherwise, of God would seem to have a lot to do with perceptions and beliefs. To believe or not believe, is still based on assumptions, presumptions and experience is it not?
~ G
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This really reminds me of Descarte's work, when he's establishing his methodological doubt, and as such hits me in my philosopher's bone. It's extremely difficult for most people to set aside all their prior experience, all their programming, all their inherent bias and truly examine reality about them with a clear and serene mind, but once accomplished, can be extremely insightful. Although the connection to my contest isn't slapping me straight in the face, it's definately suitable and I enjoyed yet another one of your works!
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If you want to know someone, watch what he does.
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when you have a statement like "Only then, when you suspend all assumptions, can you begin to learn the truth", this is an absolutist statement. this is stating that there is no other way to begin to learn the truth. the pragmatic in me tends to be wary of these sorts of statements.
so you're maybe wondering how i would say this if i wanted to avoid such a black & white seeming view. maybe something like:
If you want to know and understand some-one or something, here are a few things to try; try suspending your assumptions, withdrawing your projections, and abandoning your beliefs. In my experience, doing this has allowed me to gain tremendous insights into the underlying nature of a person or thing. Over time, this has also led me feel less concerned with matters of theoretic proofs in favor of pragmatic experiences and insights which seem to illuminate understanding in general.
a bit more wordy, but the absolutist phraseologies seem to be removed now. but, now it's really prose.
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Yes, Erin, I suppose it is more of an aphorism than 'poetry', per se. However, to infer "absolutism" is incongruous when that is what this argues against! One needs to clear the accretions of such "absolutist" convictions to begin to overcome "dualistic thinking". A dramatic point to bypass such presumptions is therefore required for a shift in the paradigm.
~ G
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reads a lot like straight forward prose:
If you want to know and understand anyone or anything, suspend all assumptions, withdraw all projections, abandon all beliefs. Only then can you begin to learn the truth of anyone and anything. Only then will you end presumptions of proof.
note the lack of imagery or any sort of trope, though there are a couple of schemes, like anaphora (the two clauses starting with "Only") and parallelism (the three consequetive statements in the first sentence). this reads better as prose than it does as a poem, actually.
what strikes me about the thoughts expressed in this little poem is that it is an absolutist's point of view. if you want this, then do that. in order to have this, then you need to do that. my view of the universe no longer works this way. i seek only to abandon dualistic thinking altogether. for me, it is thus: if you want this, then you want this; in order to have that, you must have that; if you do this, then you're doing this.
Edited on Sep 27, 8:13 because ''. -
This IS the way to walk through life.
Stunning TRUTH.
Tibetan bells chime true within me
Walk back and let the rose unfold
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That's true, Mike. 'Those convinced against their will, will hold the same opinion still'.
~ G
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presumption of proof. . interesting words
proof only works if the one shown believes it
else you can never prove to anyone but yourself ?!
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bravo!
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Wonderful Poem
You are wise beyond your year to now this already. It is so true, if only everyone would be like this it would be a friendlier world. Thnk you so much for the congratulations. I never expected to win. I really appreciate it. Take care -
extremely wise. I agree wholeheartedly we cannot see anyone if we limit our perceptions to what we know.
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thank you very much for this beautiful poem...it speaks volumes in its short form and i know how hard that is to do...beautiful job
kay -
Good Work
Nice work, i am hoping to submit one of mine, soon. As always, you have a good insight. -
Well Cin, one can pick at anything, just to 'pick'. There was no intention of being "clever". Is this not a demonstration from you of the need for my message?
It is not the 'sum of its parts'.
~ G
Edited on May 31, 12:04 because 'typo'. -
Yes, the problem with that is that it comes across as a bit of a throw-away attempt to be clever. If you have great reason for needed to have Begin and End in the same stanza, maybe you shoud clarify it somewhat? As far as I can see, noone else picked up on that, and I certainly at present can see no particular meaning in the antithetics of the second stanza.
I often do the same thing (that I (possibly mis)understand you are doing); If I see the opportunity to put something vaguely clever in, I go for it, regardless of meaning or effect, and sometimes that detracts from the poem.
Maybe you're just too clever for me? -
Thank you for your thoughtful comments, Cin .
Re 'End', that's why I did it like that. Note that the preceding centralized word/line is Begin.
~ G
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This is a good one, and most definitly poetry (and I never meant to cast aspersians on your ability to write poetry). I think your ability to combine precious thought (the idea here reminded me of Descartes ideas relating to the eradication of presupposition leading to "I think therefore I am" being attributed to him) with rhythm and phonetics (the "assumptions/projections" worked well) is very very good.
The only thing that I wasn't sure about in this poem was 'End' on its own on a line. It didn't seem to me to fit with the tone of the poem, came as slightly jarring, especially exposed on its own. -
This one is really a work of art. Its hard to be unbiased when 'judging' another person. Its in our own weakness that we find fault so easily with others... goood goood write here..
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I find this so enlightening, Maatkara. We tend to take a person, and want to understand them (or at least I do) to make them fit into our comprehension, we outline them in our assumptions. We surround them with our motives, our meanings, our reasonings. It comforts us, that things, behaviours, and their words make sense, in our definition.
I see the wisdom in your words. I see such depth, such understanding.
Bookmarking this.
Maddie -
Thank you, Heartbroken Not "cold"; emotionless, but with great Feeling I assure you. Emotions are reactive, feelings are responsive.
~ Ma'atkara
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I loved the format that this is is. Short sentances. When i read it, it sounds kind of cool, calm. Almost unfeeling? Composed, there's the word i'm looking for. Selfless, cold, and composed. "If you want to
Know and Understand
anyone or anything
Suspend
all assumptions" I applaud you for posessing such amazing talent. Such talent most of us here at Allpoetry.com could only dream about in our most wild fantasies! You should be Very proud of this.
~Heartbroken -
Oh yes...such a very bold bit of truth! Very well written and an excellent message...I love it!! I sure hope to read poems this good every day!!
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i have decided that i need to read more of your stuff. i keep meaning to get to your author page (As you are a favorite of many of my favorites) but i am lazy and a bad bad BAD allpoetry member
but now i have a VERY good reason to read more of your stuff--and that reason is because you are bloody BRILLIANT!! this is so powerful..i love the playing you have done with words here and the beauty that drips from each letter. this is so powerful and so blatantly honest. thank you for sharing this and for featuring it! i must read more now! great write! pen on!
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Thank you for the applause, Tahuti! Another good one is, 'Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.'
~ G
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minds are like parachutes...they only function when they are open.
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No, not "intuition", that can't be tainted (too few listen to it, or over-ride it with wishful thinking). And "experience" is only a worthwhile "guide" when it has been Truly learned from. That's the mystery, my friend...to learn the difference. Like that between 'opinion' and 'knowledge'.
~ G
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Bang goes intuition and experience.. betya a dime to a dollar that you'd be missing a valuable guide (and I stress the word "guide") here.. these are not presumptions.. more indicators. No harm intended. Another excellent splash of energy - easy on the eyes..testing on the brain
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Thank you, M
So hard for people to give up habits...especially habits of thinking. Unless we "turn and become as a little child" we shall not see the kingdom of heaven. Not so impossible,really. It's essential.
~ G
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Hey i love your poetry, Its a very good write!
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Wise and wonderful
Experience is a two-edged tool. It shows us reality and also denies possibility. You have written another strong and stark statement of truth.
This is why the current Dalai Lama was able to fix the carburetor when his car broke down - observation alone showed how it must be.
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Matthew 11:25 -
Wonderful
Hi Gennelle:
I love what you have said here. This is something that is very hard to do, to erase what we feel, remember and imagine. To start out completely fresh, with no bias, reminders or presumptions. It is true, this is how "Pollyanna" would see life and how relationships should start, but I, for one, am not strong enough to be able to do so. To many reminders and baggage to carry around that remind me of others, so presumptions are the most difficult part to let go. A wonderful write and ideally, for the perfect world. Thanks Bill
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