There is a sad reality that keeps the human race inherently connected to the animal kingdom. It is called the herd, or flock mentality. It is that instinct which causes us to try and fit in with the crowd; ultimately, we disappear into a sea of faceless clones. Most people who pursue this goal will, most likely, not have an original thought in their entire lives. So, that will be my challenge. I challenge you to have an original thought, and convey that thought through poetry. Before I explain the rules, let me tell you what this contest is not. It is not part of the cavalcade of cattle calls that saturate this website. It is not a “Quickie,” it is not a “Pay It Forward,” it is not a “Word Prompt,” it is not a “Picture Prompt,” and it has nothing to do with “Halloween.” It is not one of those contests that promises “Anything Goes,” and then explains that they don’t want any end-line rhyming. I won’t ask you for “Poetry” and then tell you that you’re not allowed to rhyme. Such rules negate the ANYTHING part of “anything goes.” If I didn’t want rhyme, I would explain that I was looking for “Prose With Poetic Qualities.” But these are the kinds of contests that parade by us every day on All Poetry. The kinds of contests that have become so routine, that you hardly have to think to enter. And that’s fine, if you are sheep, or cattle, incapable of having an original thought. I would hate to yank those of you who enjoy repetition out of such a cozy little comfort zone. All I’m interested in are people who don’t follow the first shepherd that comes along with a carrot, and a nice little quickie, word prompt contest. This contest is going to be work, so enter at your own risk. I challenge you to have an original thought. Not some regurgitated variation on someone else’s original thought. Since I am constantly researching the works of other philosophers, it is unlikely that any plagiarized piece will go unnoticed.
Please don’t waste my time with things like how a flower, tree, or mountain looks to you. I want to read poems that means something to someone other than just you. Original thoughts have shaped the course of human history. They have become the catalyst for trends which draw the flocks and herds by the millions. How many of you wear the brands of such trends? Ladies, do you have a tattoo? Gentlemen, do you wear an earring? Body or tongue piercings anyone? Do you wear the latest fashions, or drive the trendiest car? How about the gothic, vampire worshiping look? Do you really think any of that makes you original?? PLEASE! Like it or not, you’re followers, and followers do not have original thoughts. Most of you never will, as long as you continue believing that everything you’ve become in life was your idea. So, who are you, really, underneath all of that societal programming? Can you still connect with your true self, or is that part of you so buried by the masks of conformity that you’ve forgotten who you really are? Children hate to be left out; all alone and vulnerable. They will do what they must to fit in, because they’ve seen the alternative. Fit in, or become an outcast with few or no friends; someone who gets picked on, and teased, by kids who are trying to make names for themselves. These are the alphas. They make the rules for the kids in their circles, and everyone follows. We have all participated in this process, from one degree to another. Most never stopped participating; and it is that desire to fit in that keep most people from having an original thought.
In ancient Greece, philosophers, astronomers, scientist, and scholars would gather in great libraries, cathedrals, and observatories and discuss their original thoughts. Most of these gatherings were open to the public. People were encouraged to think outside the box. But then, something happened. Around the fourth century AD, the Catholic Church discovered a very important fact regarding human behavior. Most people prefer to take care of their own concerns, and leave worldly affairs to others. This gave the church the opportunity to adjust a few things, in order to make the business of God a bit more lucrative. Scripture was not made available to the common man, until the Bible was translated during the Reformation, more than a millennia later. As long as the people remained uninformed, the church could sell anything from forgiveness of sin, to indulgences designed to free the soul of a loved one from Purgatory. What people didn’t know, became a very prosperous enterprise for those in power. The masses could also be manipulated, simply by pointing out the “correct” way to be.
Now, in all fairness to the Church, I should point out that Christendom was not the only controlling body using this method of manipulation. Kings and Emperors also believed that the less informed their subjects were, and the less inclined toward original thinking they might be, the easier they were to manipulate, and control. Those who followed an incorrect, or independent way of thinking were punished, much like children are punished by their peers, for not going along with the program. As long as a person focuses on the task of fitting in, they will not risk original thoughts that might cause them to fall from grace in the eyes of their peers. No one wants to be the outcast. But when people reach the end of their lives, what is the number one feeling that they reflect on while laying upon their death beds? Is it fear? Actually no; it is regret. Some regret not having said things, others regret not having done things. Most regret being too afraid to be themselves; to rock that politically correct boat. They regret having let society, along with their peers, tell them who they are, instead of the other way around. Those of you who followed the trends will have your share of regrets too. When you skin begins to lose its elasticity, those tattoos will go from being badges of honor, to topics of amusement. Over time, ear piercings that puncture cartilage will cause the holes to expand, because torn, or pierced cartilage does not heal. Eventually, if enough puncture holes exist, you will develop cauliflower ears. By the time that happens, however, you will be fairly old.
Well, here’s your chance to be like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates. Here is an opportunity to think outside the box, to have an original thought. It is a chance to create something that you won’t look back on, at the end of your life, and regret. So, let’s see what you’re made of. Let’s see if you can tap into who you really are underneath all those masks, if only for a moment. And please, save the fervent denials about how you don’t wear masks to fit in. the only one that con has a chance of working on is you. I have been studying people, and the social structure for decades; and though I’ve met many people who claim to be independent thinkers, completely in touch with who they are; I have never met a single one who actually was. And yet, everyone has the potential to be just that. I don’t expect many to take me up on my challenge, for a number of reasons. Some won’t do it because they don’t want to fail, and prove that I was right about them. If you never try, you never have to discover the truth. Some won’t do it because they resent being told that they are followers. Of course, if they really wanted to disprove that, they would meet my challenge. Walking away in a huff is designed to give the appearance that you refuse to indulge, or give credence to something so insulting, as the implication that you don’t have original thoughts. It serves as an adequate mask, for not being able to face the challenge. I understand.
Now here are the rules:
: Only one Entry per person.
: Pre-writes are fine, as long as they convey an original thought.
: Erotica is not original thought material.
: Vampires, Werewolves, and the like are not original thought material.
: Describing flowers, trees, mountains, rivers, or the sea as anything other than metaphor
is not original thought material, save for a few exceptions.
: Breakup, or I love you poems are not original thought material.
: It’s sad that I have to include this but, no sTiCkY cApS!
: First prize is 700 points
: Second prize is 200 points
: Third prize is 100 points
So there it is. The gauntlet has been thrown. Who among you has the metal to pick it up? Show me the next Socrates, and dazzle me with your wisdom. Or be another Roadrunner, and run away. I’m sure there’s another Quickie, Picture Prompt contest calling your name as we speak. The choice is yours.
Please don’t waste my time with things like how a flower, tree, or mountain looks to you. I want to read poems that means something to someone other than just you. Original thoughts have shaped the course of human history. They have become the catalyst for trends which draw the flocks and herds by the millions. How many of you wear the brands of such trends? Ladies, do you have a tattoo? Gentlemen, do you wear an earring? Body or tongue piercings anyone? Do you wear the latest fashions, or drive the trendiest car? How about the gothic, vampire worshiping look? Do you really think any of that makes you original?? PLEASE! Like it or not, you’re followers, and followers do not have original thoughts. Most of you never will, as long as you continue believing that everything you’ve become in life was your idea. So, who are you, really, underneath all of that societal programming? Can you still connect with your true self, or is that part of you so buried by the masks of conformity that you’ve forgotten who you really are? Children hate to be left out; all alone and vulnerable. They will do what they must to fit in, because they’ve seen the alternative. Fit in, or become an outcast with few or no friends; someone who gets picked on, and teased, by kids who are trying to make names for themselves. These are the alphas. They make the rules for the kids in their circles, and everyone follows. We have all participated in this process, from one degree to another. Most never stopped participating; and it is that desire to fit in that keep most people from having an original thought.
In ancient Greece, philosophers, astronomers, scientist, and scholars would gather in great libraries, cathedrals, and observatories and discuss their original thoughts. Most of these gatherings were open to the public. People were encouraged to think outside the box. But then, something happened. Around the fourth century AD, the Catholic Church discovered a very important fact regarding human behavior. Most people prefer to take care of their own concerns, and leave worldly affairs to others. This gave the church the opportunity to adjust a few things, in order to make the business of God a bit more lucrative. Scripture was not made available to the common man, until the Bible was translated during the Reformation, more than a millennia later. As long as the people remained uninformed, the church could sell anything from forgiveness of sin, to indulgences designed to free the soul of a loved one from Purgatory. What people didn’t know, became a very prosperous enterprise for those in power. The masses could also be manipulated, simply by pointing out the “correct” way to be.
Now, in all fairness to the Church, I should point out that Christendom was not the only controlling body using this method of manipulation. Kings and Emperors also believed that the less informed their subjects were, and the less inclined toward original thinking they might be, the easier they were to manipulate, and control. Those who followed an incorrect, or independent way of thinking were punished, much like children are punished by their peers, for not going along with the program. As long as a person focuses on the task of fitting in, they will not risk original thoughts that might cause them to fall from grace in the eyes of their peers. No one wants to be the outcast. But when people reach the end of their lives, what is the number one feeling that they reflect on while laying upon their death beds? Is it fear? Actually no; it is regret. Some regret not having said things, others regret not having done things. Most regret being too afraid to be themselves; to rock that politically correct boat. They regret having let society, along with their peers, tell them who they are, instead of the other way around. Those of you who followed the trends will have your share of regrets too. When you skin begins to lose its elasticity, those tattoos will go from being badges of honor, to topics of amusement. Over time, ear piercings that puncture cartilage will cause the holes to expand, because torn, or pierced cartilage does not heal. Eventually, if enough puncture holes exist, you will develop cauliflower ears. By the time that happens, however, you will be fairly old.
Well, here’s your chance to be like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates. Here is an opportunity to think outside the box, to have an original thought. It is a chance to create something that you won’t look back on, at the end of your life, and regret. So, let’s see what you’re made of. Let’s see if you can tap into who you really are underneath all those masks, if only for a moment. And please, save the fervent denials about how you don’t wear masks to fit in. the only one that con has a chance of working on is you. I have been studying people, and the social structure for decades; and though I’ve met many people who claim to be independent thinkers, completely in touch with who they are; I have never met a single one who actually was. And yet, everyone has the potential to be just that. I don’t expect many to take me up on my challenge, for a number of reasons. Some won’t do it because they don’t want to fail, and prove that I was right about them. If you never try, you never have to discover the truth. Some won’t do it because they resent being told that they are followers. Of course, if they really wanted to disprove that, they would meet my challenge. Walking away in a huff is designed to give the appearance that you refuse to indulge, or give credence to something so insulting, as the implication that you don’t have original thoughts. It serves as an adequate mask, for not being able to face the challenge. I understand.
Now here are the rules:
: Only one Entry per person.
: Pre-writes are fine, as long as they convey an original thought.
: Erotica is not original thought material.
: Vampires, Werewolves, and the like are not original thought material.
: Describing flowers, trees, mountains, rivers, or the sea as anything other than metaphor
is not original thought material, save for a few exceptions.
: Breakup, or I love you poems are not original thought material.
: It’s sad that I have to include this but, no sTiCkY cApS!
: First prize is 700 points
: Second prize is 200 points
: Third prize is 100 points
So there it is. The gauntlet has been thrown. Who among you has the metal to pick it up? Show me the next Socrates, and dazzle me with your wisdom. Or be another Roadrunner, and run away. I’m sure there’s another Quickie, Picture Prompt contest calling your name as we speak. The choice is yours.
Contest is Over
- Contest was judged on October 24, 2007
- Rewards: Gold: 700, Silver: 200, Bronze: 100, Honorable mention: 3 people
- Final notes: I noticed that several entries were about society, while others were sheep analogies. While I wouldn’t go so far as to say that any entry was rooted in an original thought, I would say that some approaches to the chosen topics were more humble, honest, and cleaver than others. I suggest objectively reading each other’s work, and noting the similarities. Societies think alike, and many here assumed that I wanted to read pieces that agreed with the points I made in my contest description. Agreeing with me is not an original thought. Some of you took on other topics that had nothing to do with my opening statements, although nearly all of them were based on topics I’ve read, or heard about before. Some of you, however, were quite creative in your approach. In the end I chose the poems that left an impression on me. God bless you all.
Mark
Contest Winners
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While accepting the Nobel Prize in 1960, the poet St John Perse said :"it is enough for the poet to be the guilty conscience of his time." I believe his words to be true and that there are times when the poet must write• Viewed by judge. Prewrite [remove]
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A secret society that seeks healthy propriety
eludes all ~ but the keenest of men.by waydownuponjoy 47 lines, 40 comments, on Aug 28 6:50 AM 2007. In Contest, Society, Inspirational, Writers
Honorable mention
• Viewed by judge. Prewrite [remove] -
Women fought for franchise Got it on par with menby Venugopal 41 lines, 4 comments, on Oct 20 12:03 AM 2007. In Humor, Other, Contemporary Honorable mention
• Viewed by judge. [remove]
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I have travelled
Many different facesby freebutsafe 62 lines, 5 comments, on Nov 12 12:00 AM 2006. In Personal, Society Honorable mention
• Viewed by judge. Prewrite [remove] -
I regret that I'm a sheep, But it's who I was brought up to be,by xTomorrowx 29 lines, 2 comments, on Oct 15 1:18 AM 2007• Viewed by judge. [remove]
- Error: Unable to find finalist item 2902628, it seems to have been deleted :( [remove]
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just another sheep in this giant flock moving to the sound of a ticking clockby heartsoveratlantis 63 lines, 1 comment, on Oct 14 9:45 PM 2007• Viewed by judge. [remove]
Gold trophy winner
Silver trophy winner
Entries [14]
1 - 14 of 14
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by bloodletter68 65 lines, 2 comments, on Oct 14 9:39 PM 2007• Viewed by judge.
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Beneath the shadow
of the Great Shepherd’s staff,by jjbreunig3 23 lines, 82 comments, on Jan 7 9:21 PM 2007. In Spiritual• Viewed by judge. Prewrite -
as I travel on this path
staring the devil downby PerVirtuous 56 lines, 3 comments, on Oct 16 8:39 AM 2007• Viewed by judge. -
There Was Another Way / / / -By Lisa Parks ©- / / / Did you see? Were your eyes open or were they shut? / / / Were your ears pluggeby BeautifulFlame 58 lines, 21 comments, on Mar 11 10:05 AM 2008. In Spiritual• Viewed by judge. Prewrite
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Suddenly, I looked around and thought, what is all of this? Wondered why the hell I was here, And where I was headed. and what was to become of me, And realized... I am in exile. Chaos is the fire whichby Sundance 1 lines, on Oct 18 1:21 AM 2007• Viewed by judge. Prewrite
Add a comment
Comments
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woah
You made my mind wonder for a minute.
I think I could do it.
My poems tend to be really strange when you give such an open idea.
Be ready to be blown away.
~rach x -
I'll be back . .
Amazingly enough, I do have original thoughts – but making decent poetry of them is not that simple – But having read your dissertation from end to end, I feel I must justify the time spent . . So I’ll be back . . I’m currently packing my case for yet another long haul flight that I am not looking forward to ( Hong Kong to UK yet again . . ) having not fully recovered for the last one two weeks ago. . luckily my laptop works onboard – so it might be a way to pass the time between tray fulls of unneeded food. I must say that being a retired Grandfather with two homes and no proper job to hold me in one place can be very exhausting . .
Albert.
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Not everyone does everything because it is a trend. Not everyone followers everyone else. Yes, there are times when we do do this, but you make it sound as if every single thing each of us do is because we are following something or someone else. It's not true. We all have our own reasons for doing things.
You will probably get many arguments on your contest, as it sounds a lot more like a rant than just a challenge. You have a lot of good points, but some of the things you have said are far too generalized as if you are assuming every single thing humans do is to prove they are original, or that they are following someone or something else.
We all wear masks, but not just because we want to fit in. -
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“Not everyone does everything because it is a trend”
Really? And if getting a tattoo resulted in ridicule and excommunication from peer groups like the RP Mafia; if it isolated you, and caused you to lose all your friends, your job, your lover, and everything you care about, you’d still do it, right? PLEASE! Of course you would! You didn’t do it because it was the cool, socially acceptable, and politically correct thing to do. No, it was an original thought for you, right?
“We all have our own reasons for doing things.”
Are we talking about the cousin? Truth be known, first cousin marriage is not as taboo as some make it out to be. Sure, such unions can increase the likelihood of pathological recessive genes being passed to your children, but only if the family gene pool already has such genes floating around. Hemophilia, which has been documented in cases of inbred royals in Europe, is not a demonstration of the perils of inbreeding. It is an X-chromosome-related characteristic, transmitted only through the female line. The odds of producing perfectly normal offspring are actually in your favor. Regardless of the odds, however, it will be your children who will pay the price for your union. Because even if they turn out perfectly healthy, someone will eventually find out that they are inbred. They will become the outcasts, at whatever school they attend. All children need, in order to attack another child, is something that will isolate that child from the rest of the flock. And because adults are uninformed, a large number of parents will forbid their children from keeping company with yours. As much as you like to play the rebel (which, by the way, is not an original thought; nor is inbreeding), you will have to keep your family connection a secret, even from your own kids. Other than that, your children should be perfectly healthy, normal kids. Albert Einstein turned out ok, didn’t he? So did Charles Darwin. They were both the offspring of cousin marriages. Good luck with that.
Mark
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Everyone follows someone. If you study philosophers, astronomers, scientist, and scholars are you not following someone else's work? Some of the poems that are entered into the contests you are bashing here are actually original pieces. Perhaps in our drive to be original, we could add being kind to that thought.
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“Some of the poems that are entered into the contests you are bashing here are actually original pieces.”
First, I have not bashed a single poem. I have pointed out the tendency to follow a popular trend, such as Quickies, Pay It Forward, Word Prompt, and Picture Prompt contests. While I have no doubt that all of the poems entered in these contests are original pieces, very few, if any, are original thoughts.
“If you study philosophers, astronomers, scientist, and scholars are you not following someone else's work?”
If one doesn’t understand the original thoughts of others, how will they truly know that their own thoughts are original? I might, very well, believe that relativity was my own original thought, if I was unaware that it belonged to Albert Einstein. Since it was documented by Einstein, it isn’t difficult to find out. Many original thoughts, however fade as quickly as they appear. If you don’t write them down, eventually someone else will have the same thought. And if they document that thought, it will forever be theirs. Even if you had the thought first, you never spoke of it to anyone, and so it was also an original thought when it came to the person who wrote it down. Relativity would have been an original thought for me if I had never read about it, or heard mention of it prior to the thought. But because it was documented by Einstein, I cannot claim it for my own.
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I never said you bashed a poem, you bashed contests. I get what you were trying to say; and was not disagreeing with you. What I disagree with is the rude manner in which you stated your case. The point is really that people have lost what it truly means to be original. We all have opinions. They are as common as excuses. In everyone's need to be 'original' many hurt others. To generalize certain topics, such as church, contests, etc. is wrong. There may be a majority who fall into a certain catergory in your opinion...however, not all do. Wasn't trying to start a debate. Just letting you know that we all follow something; including you. There is a kinder way to word your thoughts. Besides if you thought of relativity without knowing that Albert Einstein did first, in a way it would still be an original thought for you.
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You have made some valid points, but I must point out if you are generalizing the human race you include yourself. What makes you think you aren't a follower? If you have been studying the social structure, then I assume you have gone to college. Oh my gosh, you went to college, what a follower. Because there is no possible way you went to college because you wanted to, you had to have gone to please society and fit in. What I am saying is, that any decision one makes can be argued that they are trying to follow. But in reality they may have their own reasons. You seem to be really interested in human behavior and societal structure which is why I assume that you have gone through schooling or have read countless books and journals on this topic. So, before you over generalize humans stop and think about your decisions as well and how some people might say you too are being a follower.
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“I must point out if you are generalizing the human race you include yourself”
Of course I include myself. I was horribly caught up in the social structure. It took a near death experience to wake me from my fog. Let me be clear on this, EVERYONE is part of this process. EVERYONE wears masks. You cannot function in today’s society without them. However, self-reflection, an occasional original thought, and the courage to rock the boat can help to reconnect a person with who they really are. I never expected to make friends with this contest. But I will not allow the AP community to dictate what inspires me. I would rather write something with deeper meaning, to inspire one other person, than write some poem about a flower, that means something only to me.
“I assume you have gone to college. Oh my gosh, you went to college, what a follower.”
Actually, I am self taught.
“any decision one makes can be argued that they are trying to follow. But in reality they may have their own reasons.”
Again, if getting a tattoo resulted in ridicule and excommunication from peer groups; if it isolated you, and caused you to lose all your friends, your job, your lover, and everything you care about, you’d still do it, right? PLEASE! Two hundred years ago, the tattooed woman was a sideshow freak at a circus. If that were the way it was looked upon today, you would NEVER have gotten one. Unless, of course, you like being alone, laughed at, and mocked. Let me go out on a limb here, you’re Wicca too, right? And I’m sure you’d be proud to shout that out to the entire world, if witches were still being burned at the stake. No matter what your reasons are, society has the final say in most of your public choices. Regardless of how many of you remain in denial over it.
Mark
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Actually, no. I am not wicca. I am Christian, not that that matters. I never understood wicca or anything, but I am not going to sit here and condemn it either, people make choices about how to live their lives and that should totally be up to them.
I do have a tattoo, but I did have my own reasons for getting it. And you are right, I probably wouldn't have one if the entire world still looked at them that way. But, as I said, I also had my own personal reasons for getting one. There were strict boundaries for myself as child and teen, I stepped outside of those boundaries as soon as I was able.
I agree that everyone wears masks, but if you think about those who were stepping out of society's boundaries you see the kind of life they had to live. Look at Vincent Van Gogh, case in point. He was brilliant, an amazing artist, but his works never received recognition until after his passing.
So yes, I agree society requires conformity and most people follow it. But generalizing every decision as conformity being the only reason is wrong. I do know you are not looking for friends on this contest and I wasn't trying to bash your idea for "an original thought" because I think it is a fine idea. I was just merely voicing my opinion
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Just musing again as I reread the contest. What kind of mask are you wearing? We all have original thoughts. There are followers and there are leaders; and most leaders became one only after following another leader that showed them the ropes. As for the church, well not every church is like the ones you have described. Mine won't so much as hold a bake sale. What you have done is generalized things as a whole based on some. That must say something about you as well. To each their own I suppose.
Have a nice day and I wish you well with this...
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“As for the church, well not every church is like the ones you have described.”
Oh? Most of the large churches are still taking your money, while making promises they can’t keep. How often do we hear a Christian of one denomination or another boast that they’re denomination has the best grasp of the truth? How often do we here them say that those who share their beliefs will make it to heaven, while everyone else is at risk. How many Ministers, Reverends, Pastors, and Priests have said that they can help you find the way? Most people, clergy included, have enough trouble finding their own way, let alone help someone else find theirs. The fact is, you can’t be told which way to go. You must make the choices that God gives you yourself. But the problem is this, we don’t have enough faith in God to get us through. We have faith in the world, but not in God. If you don’t believe that, let’s test your faith, shall we? Jesus, the Prophets, and the Apostles did it. Some of the Saints did it. Jesus even gave us an example of how to truly follow God, in one of His parables. The story of the rich man:
MATTHEW 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? ° Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had ° great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
“And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life”
The rich man kept God’s commandments. He prayed, and worshiped. And I expect that it was quite a bit more than Christians do today. But because he couldn’t let go of the world, he fell short. So tell me, can you forsake your personal property, your house, your car, your friends, and your family, trusting God to lead you to your destiny? Pride will make a person say yes, but no one fools God. If you say yes to this question, then do it. Walk away from all the worldly things that keep you safe. That house which protects you from the elements, the car that gets you where you need to go, the friends and family you depend on for support, and the church that thinks it can save your soul.
Following God means just that. But that is not what churches teach. They give you a list of things to do, then tell you that, if you do them, you will be saved. The rich man did them, even the Pharisees did them. Were they saved? If you can give your all, but only give a fraction of what you could, is that enough? Is attending church, and belief in God, for the purpose of saving yourself, enough? Because a vast majority of “believers” think it is. God will speak the truth in your heart, if you have the faith to listen; you do not need those who cannot hear to explain it to you. The world will let you down, and eventually it will spit you out. No matter how safe it feels, in the end, it will take your life. God, on the other hand, will give you life, if you just have faith in Him. More faith than you have in the world. But that’s a tall order, one that most people won’t be able to give up their twenty first century comforts for. I have yet to meet a “believer” who could, and I live in the Bible Belt. God bless.
Mark
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Your contest is quiet new since the time I'm in AP. It atracted me and I have to say congratulation.But I believe in individual feelings rather than society's.Plato was almost an enemy of poetry. Classic poets believed in common sense, not too much originality. I can find originality in individual works; the way a flower makes an individual feel and the way it looks like to an individual. It were Romantics who startded writing about individuals. So I believe them to be more original than classics or neo classics.
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Ooh,I love a good debate.Perhaps the philosophers you mention were not the first to have these original thoughts but the first to have them recorded?
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“Whilst having a broken heart is not original in itself the thoughts and pain associated with it are original to the given circumstance of the individuals experience surely?
You say erotica is not original thought,but if it is the first time an individual has thought an erotic thought it is original to them and certainly it is possible to peruse new perspectives,perceptions and sensations that are erotic and of new origin appertaining to the imagination of the individual.”
I think you missed the part where I said “I want to read poems that mean something to someone other than just you.” While personal pain, and personal sexual experiences are different for everyone, they have nothing to do with me, the mother of two from Denver, or the New Jersey cab driver. They are PERSONAL!
“There are many contests with similar themes but they have many entrants so demand, choice and need are being met for the majority seemingly.”
Really? The majority? Is that what the free verse crowd is? And you know this how? That was the requirement of your Imagination contest, correct? You don’t suppose that contest could have had those kinds of restrictions because YOU write in Free Verse, could it? It’s the style you write, and so, the only style you accepted. If you really wanted to play to the majority, you would have had no such restrictions. Another social tendency is to remain in our comfort zones, regarding public interaction. We risk looking foolish when we sail in unfamiliar waters.
“How are we ever certain that we are the instigators of original thought as that cannot,like the existence of God,either be proven conclusively nor disproven conclusively.”
Better not try then. After all, it might not be your own original thought. Someone else might have had that thought before you. Yet if that thought were never documented, and you never spoke of it with the person who had it before you, isn’t it still an original thought. Perhaps some unnamed philosopher had an epiphany one day, and then died before he could write it down. Three hundred years later, someone else has the same epiphany. He may not have been the first to think it, but he was the first to share it with others. The fact that you may not be the first to have a thought doesn’t make it any less original. I might, very well, believe that relativity was my own original thought, if I were unaware that it belonged to Albert Einstein. Since it was documented by Einstein, it isn’t difficult to find that out. Many original thoughts, however, fade as quickly as they appear. If you don’t write them down, eventually someone else will have the same thought. And if they document that thought, it will forever be theirs. Even if you had the thought first, you never spoke of it to anyone, and so it was also an original thought when it came to the person who wrote it down. Relativity would have been an original thought for me if I had never read about it, or heard mention of it prior to the thought. But because it was documented by Einstein, I cannot claim it for my own.
So, your argument does not excuse you from the challenge. The only reason you have to back out is that you can’t do it. I will address your other comment another time. It is late, and I need to get some sleep. Good night to you, and God bless.
Mark
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“Mark, surely all thoughts are personal whether or not original? Surely just because my thoughts have no weight to make an impression on you you cannot discount that they may,just may,have some meaning to another?”
Had Einstein been satisfied with just affecting a handful of lives, we wouldn’t have the theory of relativity. You can choose to affect a few lives, or you can choose to affect the world. That choice is entirely up to you. Einstein affected the world, because he had thoughts that were meant for more than just a handful. So did Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle. Do you think Christopher Columbus would have discovered the Americas if he were satisfied with only making an impression on a handful of people? He was a dreamer, who saw the world differently than his peers. Do you think Thomas Jefferson would have drafted the Declaration Of Independence, had he only been interested in affecting a few lives? History is written by the actions of people who leave their thumb print on the world, not on a suburban neighborhood, or a village.
“I have written rhyme but I know it is compromized and not freeflowing and in my opinion is crime-rhyme,because I have more freedom of expression as a free verse writer it is right for me but that is not a cop out,I just accept that I crime rhyme and don't post it anymore”
How will you ever grow, if you let obstacles and setbacks prevent you from finishing what you start? Do you have any idea how many obstacles and setbacks Christopher Columbus had before he met with success? How about Alexander Graham Bell, or Thomas Edison? Any idea how many times they failed? Anyone can write rhyming poetry, just like anyone can leave an impression on the world. The difference between those who succeed, and those who fail, is found in the choices they make. Those who fail quit, while those who succeed never give up.
“some contests with a common theme are seemingly popular”
Of course they’re popular! That’s what a fad is.
“I do take risks creatively,how about you? Maybe we could both swop comfort zones,maybe you could post a freeverse piece and maybe I could pen rhyme and then compare them ?”
Ok. In fact, I’ll write a free verse with an original thought as the topic. How’s that?
Life Is Hell
By Mark Spencer
Have you ever had the feeling
you’d done something before?
A gnawing sense of déjà vu,
in the back of your mind?
Have you dreamed of far off places,
where you have never been?
Have you heeded intuition,
on dangers yet to come?
How could you know what lies ahead,
or what the future holds?
If time is written as it goes,
you could not know your fate.
There would be no intuition,
or sense of déjà vu;
no visions in prophetic dreams,
revealing things to come.
For every choice a person makes,
there’s one they must reject.
Yet each must have a destiny,
for free will to exist.
The feeling that you’ve lived before,
of reincarnation,
is not as silly as it seems,
when you keep this in mind:
Since time does not really exist,
would it even apply,
to how things work after our death,
what waits behind that veil?
What if we start this life again,
back at the beginning;
making one different choice each time,
a never ending loop?
They say hell is separation
from the presence of God,
where the damned have been forbidden,
to look upon His face.
There’s nothing more isolating
than life within the flesh.
Our individuality
keeps us separated.
We only see through our own eyes,
and walk in our own shoes.
We try to connect with others,
but cannot touch their soul.
So what if life is really hell,
one we don’t recognize;
where lives simply repeat themselves,
as we take different roads?
And what if things like Déjà vu,
or our intuition,
were warnings against taking roads,
that we’ve taken before?
Living out every choice you have,
and walking down each path,
could go on for eternity,
and you would never know.
If you search for life’s true meaning,
what do you think you’d find?
Would it be what you thought it was,
or would it be like hell?
God bless.
Mark
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You do not have to write me the bible. I've read it and still do each day. It also teaches of marriages, children, and not forsaking the assembly of ourselves together. God will make us sacrafice things in our walk with him. I live in an apartment, we have a second hand van, and very little of the worlds comfort. We have a family of six with one income and that income is low. I don't have much to begin with. It's not about that. We find comfort in the things we cannot see. We find gratitude for what we do have. We find comfort in sharing what little we have with others. True comfort is comes from within. God has a different destiny for each of us. If we are looking at the church to teach it to us we are the wrong ones. The bible says God will direct our steps, not the church. The church is meant to praise God and to edify one another. In each journey different people will have different things to sacrafice. We don't have to give up our house to go to Heaven. That is why it's called a parable. We have to make sure we are not placing the value of the house above the value of Jesus Christ. We must make sure that our thinking is not open minded, but Christ minded. That we do not conform to this world, but decide to be 'original' and keep values and morals. That we don't start accepting sin, sexual impurity, adultry, fornication, etc. Which the world openly accepts. Yes, sometimes the world makes that hard. That is why we are also taught in the bible to pray without ceasing, to not only read the word but do the word, and meditate on His precepts day and night. When I first started living the 'christian' life, I did not even attend church. I read the bible, prayed, and taught myself. I have many things that I could type here about the proof of God in our life. As for the leaders falling, well yes some do. They are human just as we. Just because they hold higher positions in the church does not mean they are without temptation. Jesus himself was tempted. Read where it says we do not have a high priest, meaning Jesus, that cannot sympathize with our infirmities; but we do have a high priest who was tempted in every way as we are, but without sin. David was an adulterous and murderer, yet a man after God's own heart. It's not about perfection, only one ever was. If you need actual scripture reference for anything I've said I'll get it for you. God Bless and may you figure out what God wants us all too...it's not as complicated as our minds make us think. We decieve ourselves when we keep it from being simple.
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“We don't have to give up our house to go to Heaven. That is why it's called a parable.”
Truth be known, the story of the rich man was an actual encounter between that man and Jesus. A parable is a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude, or religious principal. There’s a difference. The truth is, you do have to give up the world to walk with Jesus. You can convince yourself otherwise, if you like, and we can discuss it further when the truth is revealed by God. Fortunately if I’m wrong about this, it changes very little in regards to my afterlife. If you’re wrong, however, I’m sure you understand where this is going. Regardless of the financial bracket your family is in, you are FAR more comfortable than the prophets, Apostles, or Jesus, living, most of the time, in tents or caves. They left the comforts of the world because they trusted God to keep them safe. Let your pride keep you in denial all you like, but the truth is you do not trust God enough to take care of you without the roof over your head, or the second hand van to get you where you need to go. You do not have enough faith to walk away from that, or your family.
You can make all the excuses you want to justify your reasons for not feeling like you need to give up the world, but the bottom line is, you can’t give it up. You can look up scripture until you’re blue in the face, in a effort to prove that such a leap of faith is unnecessary, but that will not change the FACT that you cannot take that leap. In spite of what you think, rich does not mean a large bank account. The world has made us all rich, to one degree or another. Your wealth is in your family, and you cannot give them up to follow Christ. At the end of days, did you really think everyone who worshiped God, read the bible, and attended church would be called righteous? In truth, MOST Christians will fall short. Did you think you could just reject the mark of the beast, and leave it at that? Did you think life would go on as before? YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING IF YOU REJECT THAT MARK!!! You will lose your home, your van, and possibly your family. And at that point, you WILL have to choose between the world and God. So look all you like for biblical loop holes, in the end, your excuses will not save you. Only God can do that. But you have to trust Him, more than you trust the world. God bless.
Mark
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"Regardless of the financial bracket your family is in, you are FAR more comfortable than the prophets, Apostles, or Jesus, living, most of the time, in tents or caves. They left the comforts of the world because they trusted God to keep them safe."
and God really did a good job on keeping them safe didn't he;
His son crucified
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an afterthought...again you yourself said 'most' churches...a generalization. The bible is full of scripture on giving. On reaping and sewing. The chuch is not wrong for taking offering.
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My poem
Just so you know what poem I wrote for this after sending the first message.
"Becoming a Philosopher"
Top of the head thinking it was.
Something I didnt think I could do tbh but I did, have a read and tell me what you think.
I haven't wrote poetry in a while since I joined again about 5 days ago.
much appreciated
~Rach x -
You know as I said before we have our own opinions. Do you think this contest is original? Many people on ap have held similar contests. Do you think everyone who enters this is original? No, they are just like the crowd trying to prove they are not. Just because I love my family, and don't want to live in the street, does not mean I am anything like the 'world'. We could sit here and debate back and forth and never get anywhere. God wants people to prosper in doing his will. There are so many scriptures. I don't have to give up the husband that God has ordered me to obey. Nor the children that he has ordered me to train up in the way that they should go. Paul said that each man has a gift, some in this manner, and some in that. He was referring to his abstinence, and to the ones that would rather marry. I am tired. I really don't have time or energy to waste with you anymore. You are rude and strongheaded. Rest assured I am praying for you. As for the mark of the beast, what does that have to do with it? If we don't get the mark we will no longer be able to buy, sell or trade. You don't think I'd die for Jesus after he did it for me? Please don't try to tell me what I will and will not do. You do not have the faintest idea of who I am. Perhaps you should deal with the issue you have to get reactions out of people. Does that make your self-taught self feel important? We are to love. God is love. The two most important commandments were not walk away from your family. They were love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body and soul. And love your neighbor as yourself. Leaving the world behind does not include your family, unless your family is a bunch of non believers that hold you back. What if in the end you find that for all the knowledge you thought you had, you were wrong? We are to not only gain wisdom, but with all our getting of it, get the understanding. God bless.
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“Just because I love my family, and don't want to live in the street, does not mean I am anything like the 'world'.”
I never said it did. I simply spoke the truth. It means that the finite things of a fading reality are more important than the true reality; that reality being God. You cannot have your cake, and eat it too. You cannot hold on to the world, while doing just enough to get yourself into heaven. That’s what the rich man did, along with the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and people like Gehazi. That is not an encouraging track record.
“God wants people to prosper in doing his will.”
And what is your definition of prosper, worldly rewards? It seems to me that the Bible was fairly clear about that sort of thing. The one who loved his worldly treasures (another rich man) was cast into hell, while Lazarus, a poor beggar, was rewarded in heaven.
“Paul said that each man has a gift, some in this manner, and some in that. He was referring to his abstinence, and to the ones that would rather marry.”
I never said people don’t have gifts. Paul had many gifts. He was wealthy. He was powerful (a member of the Sanhedrin). He had a nice home, a wife, and a family. And you know what? HE GAVE THEM ALL UP TO FOLLOW CHRIST! Isaac was a gift to Abraham, from God. Abraham loved that boy, and yet, he came within a fraction of a second of killing him…FOR GOD! Make as many excuses as you like. Deny the TRUTH all you want. YOUR FAITH IS IN THE WORLD, AND YOU WILL NOT GIVE IT UP! God is just an afterthought. The frosting on your worldly cake.
“You don't think I'd die for Jesus after he did it for me?”
One never knows what they would do until the opportunity presents itself. Until then, it’s just a lot of proud promises that signify NOTHING! Talk all you want about things you say you would do. Since you don’t have to prove it, all it is…is talk. As it is, you aren’t even willing to give up the world for Jesus, let alone your life.
“The two most important commandments were not walk away from your family. They were love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body and soul. And love your neighbor as yourself.”
And you came to that conclusion how? The Book of Exodus says:
Commandment 1. I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Commandment 5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Commandment 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Commandment 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
These are part of the Ten Commandments
The book of Mark interprets these to mean:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
What I find curious, is how, in your desperation to find something to support your “cake and eat it to” argument, you got:
“The two most important commandments were not walk away from your family.”
WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? You can love God without holding on to worldly things! You can love thy neighbor without holding on to worldly things! You can even honor you father and mother without holding on to worldly things. How? By dedicating ALL of your time to doing God’s work, just like the prophets, and the apostles did, just like Jesus did. By doing so, you share God’s message with your neighbors, wherever you go. You honor you father and mother by being the Godly child you could be. And you show the Lord, thy God that you love Him more than you love the world.
“What if in the end you find that for all the knowledge you thought you had, you were wrong?”
What if, in the end, YOU find that for all the knowledge you thought I didn’t have, you were wrong? Which of us stands to lose more if we’re wrong?
My argument is based on what I want for you, while your argument is based on what YOU want for you. Which argument is less biased, and self-serving? You protest because you WANT me to be wrong. You WANT to keep things as they are. You don’t WANT to make a choice like this. Such a choice, forces us to look at the truth, and we are far too comfortable with our masks to do that. I know that our discussion won’t make you look at yourself. I know that you will just write this off as the ravings of a madman, just as the Pharisees did Jesus, and the gentiles did Paul. The bottom line is this: My debate was not designed to make you leave your family, it was designed to make you reevaluate a faith you THOUGHT was greater than it is. We can only grow spiritually, if we know our flaws. But nothing Jesus said, nothing Paul said, and nothing Elijah said could sway the hardened heart of one who already THINKS they’re saved. If they couldn’t do it, what chance do I have? God bless.
Mark
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I see you're at it again Mark Spencer. I've missed your lengthy theories about humankind, and our misconstrued behaviors. LOL I read your philosophies here from beginning to end, and agree with almost everything. The tidbits I disagree with are not worth any bantering. Original thoughts are vain, just as rehearsed ones. LOL The vanity of man comes in small, and large doses. Yours is quite hefty.
Again, I have missed your eloquent flare at pressing the bar to be raised. LOL I must regress. I like the quickie contests because they test my ability to pen a poem at will, and without notion. Even with minor thought processes, my thoughts are still my own. LOL
Have a mind-fill in your judging my friend.
Much Love & Many Blessings ♥
Renee
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Have you even read the bible?
“The two most important commandments were not walk away from your family. They were love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And love your neighbor as yourself.”
"And you came to that conclusion how?"
Matthew 22:34-40
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. Once of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and GREATEST commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself." ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Now why would Jesus say that. Well if you love God with all you have, then you will strive to please him. In doing so you are less likely to sin. If you also love your neighbors as much as yourself you will not hate them, murder them, steal from them, covet them, etc. Makes sense. If the world revolved around love there would be no evil.
“God wants people to prosper in doing his will.”
There are several places you could go to look this up. First priority is to prosper spiritually. To 'study to show yourself approved." "Desire the sincere milk of the word, etc." However you can find several scriptures where it says that money and financial gain are not a sin, only the love of it is. That is why Jesus says it will be easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than to see a rich man go to Heaven. The sin is not in being wealthy, it is in loving the money more than God. Money is NOT the root of all evil, the love of it is. Because anything you love more than God is idolatry. He promises that if you give, it will be given unto you. That with the measure you use, it is the measure it will be given back to you. You will reap bountifully if you sew bountifully. Reap sparingly if you sew sparingly. God promises to open the windows of Heaven and pour out blessings too many to contain if you will give your tithe and offering. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28. Read the story of King Solomon. God was so please that he did not pray for riches, but instead he prayed for wisdom. God was so pleased in fact that he gave him the wisdom and riches. Read proverbs. Gain is not the sin, ill gotten gain is the sin. God has many promises of financial blessing. He even promises to give seed to the sewer. So if you will use the gain for his will, you can get the gain. He promises that he who is faithful with little can be trusted with much. The list goes on...
Is 40:29, “He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.”
Jer 33:3, “Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.”
Ez 34:26, “And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.”
Matt 6:31-33, “Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
Matt 7:7-8, “ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
Luke 6:38, “ Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
"And my God shall supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:19).
"And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything…" (2 Corinthians 9:8a).
John 10:10 The theif comes only to steal, to kill, and to destroy. I am come so that you might have life, and have it more abundantly.
Here is some more info that I researched just for you. Perhaps you could take up the challenge. No need to respond to me this time. I've nothing left to say. I know who I am in Christ.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” – Heb. 11:1
Faith. A simple word of only five letters. So simple that many people fail to understand how much power is packed into this one word when it is applied to our life. Chapter 11 of Hebrews shows the power of faith when put into action stating that, “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made by things which are visible” (vs. 2). By faith we obtain salvation. By faith we walk in healing. By faith we live each day in pursuit of a Savior we do not physically see. It is all done by faith. If then we are committed to living a life by faith in so many other areas of our life, why is it difficult for us to include financial faith into the equation?
When people start talking about faith for financial prosperity there is almost immediately one of two responses that rise up on the inside: criticalness or excitement. On one hand you have people who have bought into a theology that speaks against financial prosperity for Christ followers. It may be that these people have watched one too many Christian television networks or heard of one too many Christian personalities who have publicly failed in their financial management and thus thrown a poor witness to the on-looking world about who we are. In an attempt to distance themselves from such a poor witness of The Faith they deny any spiritual connection between being truly financially prosperous and being holy. So to these people, holiness equals poverty (or distance from wealthy). Anything that includes the word “prosperity” becomes like an evil omen of doom, something to be avoided at all cost. Let’s get this one straightened out right from the jump, shall we!
Nowhere in the Bible is there a correlation made that holiness equals poverty or vice versa. Nowhere! Anyone who wants try to contradict this point can be my guest. You won’t find it (but you will end up learning a lot more about the Bible, hence the invitation to try…enjoy!). This is because every time poverty is illustrated in the Bible it correlates with a curse, problem and/or situation to get free from. The incorrect conclusion that many people draw is based on inaccurate interpretation of scripture. One verse is pulled out of context and used to make a point. In the process the scripture is twisted and people formulate a warped view of financial doctrine. A verse that gets used in this way frequently is 2 Corinthians 8:9 which says, “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.” I’ve heard this scripture twisted into the argument that “Christ had to become poor because it was the way to becoming the most righteous, and if He had to so should we.” Hello, did you miss the rest of the verse? Let me share the correct interpretation for you in a way that should rock your financial and spiritual world!
When Christ went to the cross on our behalf it made a way for salvation first and foremost. Secondly, the cross was the physically demonstration of Christ taking all authority and power away from the devil and placing that authority in its rightful place: Jesus Christ. Have you ever wondered what power and authority Christ took from the devil seeing how God is all powerful, all loving, and created every living thing in the first place? The power and authority discussed here is referenced in John 10:10 stating, “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come to that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” When Adam and Eve sinned and diluted the perfect plan God had established for them in the garden, the devil took the power that MAN gave him and started taking parts of God’s promises away from us without so much of as a fight from us. Did you even catch what I just said?!
God’s plan in the Garden of Eden was a one of complete relationship with Him, complete protection by Him, complete power and authority through Him, and complete PROVISION because of Him!!! (I’m bouncing in my seat as I write this…I have to preach somehow!) God’s first plan was complete provision for every need that we would ever face but because of our deception and belief in the devils lies we traded in God’s perfect plan for a flawed one. Christ regained the power and authority we gave up and presented it to us again. However, instead of sticking everyone back in a garden with provision all around us, He requires that we stand on His Word and decide to act on the authority and promises He has made to us. Breathe…..take that all in.
We were created to mirror God Himself who is rich in all things and in all ways. Later I will discuss what mirroring Christ looks like financially, but you should get picture that Christ paid a high price to secure all the promises found in His Word. It’s time we all start living like it and get on to accomplishing the plan He has for His people while on earth. The only thing stopping us from living a faith filled life that includes His complete provision is our decision to walk out what He has already done. Our choice to trust His Word and be faithful to His principles is the only limiting factor in play.
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“Matthew 22:34-40
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. Once of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and GREATEST commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself." ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Now why would Jesus say that. Well if you love God with all you have, then you will strive to please him. In doing so you are less likely to sin. If you also love your neighbors as much as yourself you will not hate them, murder them, steal from them, covet them, etc. Makes sense. If the world revolved around love there would be no evil.”
Are you actually reading my comments, or reading bits and pieces, and assuming what the rest says? I’ll reiterate.
You can love God without holding on to worldly things! You can love thy neighbor without holding on to worldly things! You can even honor you father and mother without holding on to worldly things. How? By dedicating ALL of your time doing God’s work, just like the prophets, and the apostles did, just like Jesus did. By doing so, you share God’s message with your neighbors, wherever you go. You honor you father and mother by being the Godly child you could be. And you show the Lord, thy God that you love Him more than you love the world.
“Nowhere in the Bible is there a correlation made that holiness equals poverty or vice versa. Nowhere! Anyone who wants try to contradict this point can be my guest.”
Where did I say poverty meant holiness? You are just assuming, aren’t you?
“God wants people to prosper in doing his will. There are several places you could go to look this up.”
I noticed that you cut and pasted quite a bit of scripture in this latest attempt at keeping the status quo. Therefore, I find it odd that you would just tell me about these “several places” that I could look this up, rather than cutting and pasting that bit of scripture also. Could it be that you looked, but could not find?
“However you can find several scriptures where it says that money and financial gain are not a sin, only the love of it is.”
I think that I’ve been fairly clear that it’s love of the material world that motivates most people, not just money. That is the core of this debate, not the tangents you’re going off on in an effort to distract me from the point.
1 John, chapter 2
"15": Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
"16": For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
"17": And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
I would pay very close attention to that pride of life part, if I were you. It is pride that keeps you coming back. It is pride that motivates you to try and justify your love of your family over your love of God.
Allow me to use one of the scriptures you so kindly provided. Only let’s add a bit more of it, so that it won’t be taken out of context.
Matt 6:
19: Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22: The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23: But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25: Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26: Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27: Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28: And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30: Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31: Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32: (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34: Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
You know, this seems to agree with my position more than it supports yours. “Lay NOT up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.” What this is saying, is that we need not worry if we have food, water, or clothing. If we trust God instead of the world, these things will be provided. He provides for the grass, and the lilies in the field, would he not do the same for you, oh ye of little faith? And how about that “Ye cannot serve God and mammon” part? I don’t know which I like better, that, or the “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” part. Your treasure seems to be here, with your family. You know, God really does understand. But when you pretend that He comes first, when He doesn’t, that is a problem.
“John 10:10 The theif comes only to steal, to kill, and to destroy. I am come so that you might have life, and have it more abundantly.”
Do you really think our time in these finite, dying bodies is the LIFE this scripture is referring to? Did Jesus come so that we could have life on earth, or everlasting life in Heaven? I’m sure you know what it means, and I’m sure you read the rest of Matthew 6. However, in order to convince ME that you are following God, in spite of the evidence that says otherwise, you were willing to use scripture out of context. What is the point? God knows the truth. Is it that you don’t want other members of AP to think less of you? Is that it? You certainly don’t care what I think. So that must be it. Impressions. You want people to see your “righteousness.” Losing a debate to me would cause people to question that, wouldn’t it? I was wondering why you kept coming back here, since you made it very clear how you feel about me:
“I really don't have time or energy to waste with you anymore. You are rude and strongheaded.”
And yet, here you are; still trying to justify your actions. Still trying to win this debate.
“Faith. A simple word of only five letters. So simple that many people fail to understand how much power is packed into this one word when it is applied to our life. Chapter 11 of Hebrews shows the power of faith when put into action stating that, “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made by things which are visible” (vs. 2). By faith we obtain salvation. By faith we walk in healing. By faith we live each day in pursuit of a Savior we do not physically see. It is all done by faith. If then we are committed to living a life by faith in so many other areas of our life, why is it difficult for us to include financial faith into the equation?”
Having faith, and believing in the concept of faith are two different things. The one who HAS faith needs only God. He does not need worldly treasures if he has treasures in heaven. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The one who believes in the concept of faith talks and talks about it, but when it comes to walking in faith, he can only talk about it more. The time for talk will soon be at an end, and those who cannot walk, and follow where Christ leads, will be left behind. So many people will be taken by surprise by that simple truth.
“We were created to mirror God Himself who is rich in all things and in all ways.”
I assume your “mirror God Himself” comment, refers to the misinterpretation of being created in His image. Image was the only Greek word tselem translated into when the first translations of the bible occurred. However, in English it translates to shadow. “in the tselem of 'elohim was made 'Adam.” In the shadow of God was made Adam. We DO NOT mirror God. That is pride and vanity talking. Our finite minds haven’t the slightest concept of God’s countenance. God is eternal, we are not. Being finite, we have no reference for which to imagine the infinite.
“Have you even read the bible?”
As a matter of fact, I have…many times. It’s kind of a prerequisite when you study for the ministry. Did I leave that out? I was just enjoying your jumps to teacher mode so much, that it must have slipped my mind. I do realize, however, that my spiritual education means nothing to one so knowledgeable as yourself. Unfortunately, your argument is simply an attempt to justify your actions. It falls apart when tested. Now, if you’re too proud to cut your losses and go, you’re welcome to continue trying to win this debate. I, of course, will continue to prove you wrong. God bless.
Mark
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What complete and utter bullshit.
I have faith that there is no god .. I am not a Christian, A Muslim, A Wiccan or any other bullshit theroy that has been invented by the human race as a means to control others.
the old testament, a pretty good fictional story, probably passing as Sci-Fi back then.
the new testament, just a collection of stories (choosen and changed by a group of power hungry clergy) who wanted something that suited their view of things, out of the numerous gospels the four chosen were the ones that stuck closest to doctrine.
Even the Essenes (the sect that Jesus was part of) dis-owned JC for taking their teachings to the dead (that is what they called anybody who did not adhere to their teachings). Peter was labelled as "The Great Sin" because he corrupted their teachings and if woman had been giving the credence they deserved back then we would all probably be involved with a church that had Mary as its prime figure.
No arguement that JC exsisted, no arguement that he was a very intelligent man with a meassage .. but that is all he was ... a man.
I have a certain amount of respect for those who "believe" but I need no crutch to rest upon to see me through this life.
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“I have faith that there is no god .. I am not a Christian, A Muslim, A Wiccan or any other bullshit theroy that has been invented by the human race as a means to control others.”
Well, you have faith in a pipe dream friend. What do you think Atheism does? While religion tries to tell people what they can’t do, atheism tells them what they can. Its ok, you needn’t worry about judgment. Do whatever you like. If someone gets in the way of you goals, feel free to crush them. All that truly matters is you. There are no consequences for our actions. Pay no attention to that coincidental fantasy the superstitious call karma. What goes around does not really come around.
Like everyone else, you THINK you know the truth. You’ve bought into that ever popular Big Bang THEORY. Many scientists believe that the universe is finite, rather than infinite. Einstein believed the universe to be spherical. So, what do you really know about the accidental, chance event that created reality, as you know it?
The Big Bang theory asserts that our universe emerged from an enormously dense, and hot state around thirteen and a half billion years ago. There is some disagreement on what that dense, hot state consisted of; however some believe it was some kind of gravitational singularity. Try to imagine all the matter in the universe collapsing into one great ball of tremendously dense reactive material. Eventually, critical mass is reached, and the singularity explodes, creating the universe as we know it. So why don’t we take a look at the Big Bang for a moment? A starting point from which collapsed matter is exploded outward suggests a center point of gravitational energy. If the universe were created from such an explosion, it would indicate that there is, in fact, a center of the universe, as Einstein believed. Expansion suggests this as well. Anything that has a center, has something from which that center is measured. Eventually, matter dispersed throughout the cosmos would reach these limits, and begin a slow return to the gravitational point of origin. Along with gravity, there are two other forces at work within a finite universe subject to such limits. Those forces are time, and space. The existence of time and space suggests that our reality has both a beginning and an end; a point at which time is born, and a point at which it dies. The reason for this conclusion is elementary, if the universe were eternal, it would be timeless, and boundless. There would be no center, and time would not exist. And if time did not exist, space would cease to be as well, since time and space are relative. Still, evidence indicates a beginning and an eventual end to the universe.
The beginning should be of particular interest to you. Could our reality have come from nothing? Think about what that suggests. That at some point there was nothing, then some kind of cosmic anomaly occurred, after which, there was something. If you were to try and imagine nothing, you would fail, because your every thought is something. Endless white emptiness, a black void, they are both something. By definition, the word nothing means NO-thing; no matter, no energy, no gravity, no space, no time, no cosmic anomalies, and no thought. It is the absolute absence of all things; in other words, complete non-existence. Therefore, if no building blocks exist, how does something anomalous occur? The short answer is: It doesn't. There is no gray area regarding this topic; it is completely black and white. Because we begin and end, we tend to think in linear terms, but the true reality is far from linear. Since there would be no building blocks, no existence of any kind, the state of nothing could NEVER have existed. Which leads to one conclusion: something must have ALWAYS existed. That core force, or energy which provides the building blocks for everything, would have to be eternal, having no beginning and no end; suggesting that eternity does, in fact, exist.
We are finite, linear beings; living in a finite, linear reality. There is a progression from point A to point B for all things within the confines of this realm. Even wormhole technology is bound by this principal. Yes, it is possible to bend spacetime, however, the one bending it still begins at one point and ends at another. Regardless of the starting point, or the destination, the journey still has a linear progression.
As I said before, we think in linear terms. Thought begins with an observation, an idea, or a question, and ends with a conclusion that brings the thought into focus. Our reality operates under similar principals of progression. It commences with a beginning, and concludes with an ending. At the crux of this progression is time and space. However, using the principals of logical deduction, we will establish that the existence of time and space is a paradox. Existence cannot come from non-existence, and something cannot come from nothing. If “something” exists, it has always existed. If something has always existed, it is eternal. What is eternal is also infinite, having no beginning and no end. This is a state of timelessness. Within such a state, the laws of linear progression do not exist. And yet, here we are.
The very nature of eternity requires no continual growth, as suggested by the Steady State Theory. Nor does it need to expand and collapse, as proposed by the Big Bang Theory. Eternity, that infinite something, would be in all places at once. It would be in perfect balance, existing equally, and evenly everywhere. There would be no empty pockets of space between clusters of dying stars and planets. Yet, again, here we are. And how is it that we can refer to ourselves as we, us, me, or I? How can we ponder such questions as these? While other animals are asking: “Where will the next meal come from?” the human animal is looking up at the stars and asking: “Where did I come from?” We are aware of self, and it is that self-awareness which fuels our consciousness. Some scientists have given the name “sentient energy” to that consciousness. Since something cannot come from nothing, the components for sentient energy would have to be present within the eternal force, from which all things are made. Thus, eternity would also have consciousness. Since humanity constantly seeks answers for things they do not understand, they would endeavor to put things into a perspective they could comprehend. If Abraham was told, in a dream, that Sodom and Gomorrah were to be destroyed by fire and brimstone, and it later came to pass, how would he explain that; prophetic intuition? Would he chalk it up to a lucky guess, or would he credit the prediction to an all-powerful God?
Prophetic intuition implies something more than just a lucky guess, if the prophesy comes true. It suggests that we can see beyond the linear progression of time. In a finite reality, time creates itself from moment to moment; future events do not exist until they become present events. Seeing something before it happens would be impossible. However, if an eternal consciousness exists, it would not be bound by the linear progression of time. It would see, and think, everything all at once. Meaning, our reality will exist, does exist, and has existed collectively. Have you ever wondered if God knows what paths you will choose in life? Well, the answer should be obvious. Since time does not apply to a timeless eternity, the end and the beginning of a thought would exist together. It would be that thought, which would create the illusion of linear progression, for everything contained within. Since we are part of the thought, time will appear to progress from moment to moment. But every now and then, a prophetically intuitive dream, or mental image will give a select few, the ability to glimpse the future.
The concept of eternity suggests that everything exists at once, including us. We do not think, or see everything collectively because our five senses operate in the same manner as time, taking us from point A to point B. Each of these perceptions has a beginning and an end. To illustrate my point, bend down and take in the fragrance of a rose. The scent enters through your sense of smell, but when you leave the presence of the rose bush, the flower’s fragrance becomes nothing more than a memory. The same applies to the flavor of Mom’s apple pie. The memory remains, but the taste fades after you’ve finished the pie. I recently visited Mount Rushmore, and marveled at the sight of such an enormous work of art. And though I have the photographs to confirm I was there, the actual sight has faded into memory. The same is true of the last song I listened to, and the last key I touched on the keyboard of this computer. The hypothetical sixth sense, on the other hand, operates somewhere outside the confines of basic linear progression. Some have seen events that have not yet occurred, while others relive past events that did not happen to them. If this sense is real, it suggests that we have the ability to pull pictures of past, and future event into the present, giving the recipient the ability to see non-consecutive parts of a story at the same time.
If you believe in extra sensory perception, intuition, or prophecy, then you believe in something more than the natural progression of events. If you believe in the predictions of Nostradamus, Edgar Casey, Jean Dixon, Gordon Michael Scallion, Isaiah, Daniel, Timothy, or St. John the Devine, then you do not believe in the linear passing of time. To believe in possibilities, such as seeing temporal events before they happen, is to believe that those events could be pre-conceived. And to entertain a notion like that, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is to believe that some force, outside the constraints of time, is at work. If that is true, then time is nothing more an illusion.
The point is this: our universe cannot have randomly come into being on its own. Something cannot emerge from nothing, and the finite cannot evolve independently within the infinite. You have every right to question your existence; that is simply part of your discerning curiosity. However, if you cannot adequately prove wrong the points raised in this comment, then don't let pride cause you to scoff at, or ignore them. The wise person is always looking for answers to help in understanding the questions that fill his or her mind. If those answers lead away from earlier conclusions, the wise person is not too proud to follow where those answers lead. When evidence presents itself, which suggests that a paradigm may be wrong, the proud person rejects it. Scientists tend to wave their degrees and credentials like flags of honor, qualifying themselves before presenting their THEORIES as fact. Always keep in mind that science has no real explanation for the existence of our universe. They can trace the Big Bang to within milliseconds of the actual event, but they cannot explain how something could come from nothing. Realities do not create themselves, no matter how convincingly fabricated the scientific explanation might be. GOD bless.
Mark
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I am not an Atheist either, to be an atheist ie. a non-believer in God, I would have to admit the existence of God in order not to believe in God (does that makes sense?).
I believe that each individual has the capacity to be good or bad .. that is not divine it is just our nature.
"Like everyone else, you THINK you know the truth. You’ve bought into that ever popular Big Bang THEORY."
I have no idea if the big bang is the truth or not, but it sure sounds more believable than some "presence" deciding to create a universe. I have read numerous theories on the creation of the universe, I know about the "big bang" theory .. maybe not as a scientist does but as an educated man with an inquisitive mind .. I've studied several religions, there doctrines and have come to the conclusion that they are all just interpretations of each other, moulded to suit the needs of those who want to control .. even now our religions are morphing to suit the modern world .. except it seems the Muslims, their religion has remained unchanged for quite some time .. but even so it is nothing more than a set of rules written by MAN to control other men.
I read your theory on the creation of our reality and there is nothing untrue in what you said, I cannot argue against what you have written because that would be futile .. however I do have a question for you. If as is said that all things must have a beginning and something cannot be created out of nothing .. who or what created God, if you give the common answer of God has always been then you invalidate your own statements above, you cannot have something from nothing.
Maybe the creation and destruction of the universe is infinite, maybe it has been happening ad infinitum and we create finite restrictions to suit our own limited perspective .. I don't know. What I do know for myself is that IF I wanted to believe in God, I would not require a church to talk to him/her, I would not require an army of clergy to tell me HOW to worship him/her, nor would I require a rule book on how I should conduct my life.
Slightly off track here but something to think on .. If god does exist then you must concede that the devil exists as well... the devil is a cast out angel (in fact more than one angel was cast out, but they have become a single entity for the sake of religion), why did god, who is all powerful, not just destroy the devil... as he did to Sodom, most of the world with the flood and on numerous occasions when the human race has displeased him.. .why did he leave open this avenue for the human race to turn away from him... a test perhaps and why did god not stop the battle of heaven, he/she is after all not bound by the physics that entrap us, he/she is everywhere, in all times ets, etc. Surely god knew the war was coming and could have just wiped out the ringleaders before they even knew they were going to be ringleaders ... hey look no war, no cast out angels, no devil, no evil. Surely god didn't make a mistake when he/she created us .. a being with no constraints, allowing a floored creation to exist for as long as we have? Why not just euthanize us all and start again.
I'm sorry, but religion relies on the concept that God makes mistakes and can't do anything about them .. hmmm not a very powerful god then, he/she must have restrictions that makes he/she a linear being .. just like you and me!
Until science or religion proves how the universe came into existence whether it be a purely natural occurrence or by the will of some omnipresent force, this discussion will never cease.
"If you believe in extra sensory perception, intuition, or prophecy, then you believe in something more than the natural progression of events."
How is that so? I believe in ESP, but that does not mean it is not a natural progression of events, time can be bent, even, theoretically folded until it meets itself, therefore why is it not possible that there are humans who can "tap" into these folds and see what is to come .. maybe in a few thousand years it is something we all will be able to do .. its called evolution ... look up the Mobius strip, many feel that time is a Mobius strip.
Does the universe have a conscience? Hmmm probably not, if our conscience comes from the universe then it is safe to assume that when we die our conscience returns to the universe, but there is a chance it could be re-born into another body .. reincarnation .. maybe Buddha was right.
Even if the universe does have a conscience, that does not make it god .. does a conscience have any power over the physical world, yes but only when coupled with a physical body .. does god have a physical body.
Actually it is good to find someone who puts down concise arguments to support their ideas, most of the time all you get is “God is everything”, “God is the ultimate”,” I don’t have to explain because God needs no explanation”, etc. etc. etc
I look forward to your reply.
Oh and a great idea for a contest, but what constitutes original thought?
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“If as is said that all things must have a beginning and something cannot be created out of nothing .. who or what created God, if you give the common answer of God has always been then you invalidate your own statements above, you cannot have something from nothing.”
Eternity itself, by definition, is eternal, having no beginning and no end. As I said before, if something exits, it has always existed. Science claims that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. That core force, which provided the building blocks for all you THINK you know, is eternal. IT was not created. Unlike you and I, eternity is not finite, or linear, it simply is. Whatever is present within the ILLUSION you believe to be reality, must exist within the building blocks. That includes sentience. I call this “reality” an illusion (as Plato did also) because, eternity is boundless and timeless. Both of these exist here. Energy is bound to the shapes and substances that form our universe. Yet if energy is the natural state of all matter, why is it not IN its natural state? Why is it bound to its present form? Why would linear progression exist here, if the natural state of eternity is timeless? Nothing is as it should be, if everything develops naturally, and everything you believe in is a lie. I cannot tell you what our reality is, but I can tell you that it is far from what it seems.
Years ago, I watched an episode of “That’s Incredible,” which presented a six, or seven year old girl who lifted over two hundred pounds, to the astonishment of the viewing audience. A 32 year old mother, who couldn’t even lift 100 pounds, manages to lift a car off of her trapped child, and she does it with one arm. I don’t care how much adrenalin you pump into your body, you could not duplicate something like that. Weight lifters tear muscles quite often, lifting far less weight than that. Adrenalin alone cannot explain it. Edward Leedskalnin, a 5-ft. tall, 100-lb. Latvian immigrant, built the Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida. Some of the stone blocks he used were heavier that those used to build the Great Pyramid. The man he hired to haul the blocks, revealed in an interview that Leedskalnin would ask him to take a walk at each destination; when he returned, the blocks had already been loaded or unloaded from his truck. He saw no equipment, or tools with which to move the stones. Teenagers who lived nearby claimed that they saw Leedskalnin lay hands upon one of the blocks, and begin singing. They swore that the block levitated as he did this. During the years it took to build the Coral Castle, no neighbor ever saw any heavy equipment, and Leedskalnin never hired a single worker, to aid in the castle’s construction. On the 8th of June, 1992, I had a premonition of a motorcycle accident I hadn’t had yet. The vision was VERY specific; if I failed to wear my full face helmet, I would not survive. Three days later, to the hour, I was cut off by a car traveling at half my speed. I hit the highway at 70 mph, face first, and skidded for more than the length of a football field, on my face. My helmet looked like it just had a close encounter with an electric grinder. If I had not heeded my intuition, I would be dead.
There are far too many accounts like these, depicting actions, and events that should not be possible. At our present rate of technological progress, the Matrix will be achievable within 50 years. Bio-technology is advancing just as quickly as virtual technology is. Very soon, there will no longer be a need for buttons, joy-sticks, or virtual goggles. Everything will be connected directly to the brain. The virtual environment will, literally, exist within the mind of the user. What do you think we will be capable of in 100 years? How about 200? As I said, all matter in the universe is actually energy bound by some unknown force, giving it the appearance of being solid. If you were jacked into a sophisticated virtual reality simulator, what would it use to simulate solid objects? Answer: energy. If it were connected to your mind, it would only need the power of suggestion to make you think something was real. In extreme situations, such as lifting a car off of a loved one, the mind might be able to override suggestion for a moment. How do you really know that you are not living in the twenty second century, learning history, first hand, on the virtual stage? One thing is certain; this “reality” did not develop on its own. Whether it is a virtual simulation, created by a future generation, or an illusion created by an intelligent eternity, it makes no difference. The fact still remains that, in the end, all that you believe to be real, is nothing more than an illusion. And if everything you believe in is an illusion, aren’t you being manipulated into believing in something that doesn’t really exist?
Oh, and regarding good and evil, if the wrong choice didn’t exist, the right choice wouldn’t either. Without opposing choices, there would be no choice. Saddam was evil, because of his choices. Jesus was crucified because of the choices of others. If God prevented people from making the wrong choices, would free will still exist? Of course the people killed in the 2004 tsunami were not the victims of choice. But you see that event as evil, if God exists, because they died. But how do you destroy what can’t be destroyed? Why do people always think that being released from the illusion is a bad thing? Because they believe the illusion is the true reality, and nothing exists beyond it. How naive is that? God bless.
Mark
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“Eternity itself, by definition, is eternal, having no beginning and no end. As I said before, if something exits, it has always existed. Science claims that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed.”
Is that true? Surely the concept of eternity was developed by human kind and therefore by your own arguments could or could not be true, if we only exist in an illusion the eternity must be part of that illusion. Even time (again a human invention) would only be a part of that illusion. I don’t look at time as linear, I know it has an Up and down as well as a left and right.
Dr Steven Hawking has a theory that there doesn’t actually have to be a beginning of the universe, they know (in theory) that the universe was created from a singularity .. however normal laws do not exists within a singularity, they break down. So with the absence of those laws energy COULD be created from nothing.
You seem fairly certain that reality is far from what it seems, yet better minds have debated this very issue and have, as yet, not reached a verdict, do you claim to be better equipped to do this than them?
“Years ago, I watched an episode of “That’s Incredible,” which presented a six, or seven year old girl who lifted over two hundred pounds, to the astonishment of the viewing audience. A 32 year old mother, who couldn’t even lift 100 pounds, manages to lift a car off of her trapped child, and she does it with one arm. I don’t care how much adrenalin you pump into your body, you could not duplicate something like that. Weight lifters tear muscles quite often, lifting far less weight than that. Adrenalin alone cannot explain it. Edward Leedskalnin, a 5-ft. tall, 100-lb. Latvian immigrant, built the Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida. Some of the stone blocks he used were heavier that those used to build the Great Pyramid. The man he hired to haul the blocks, revealed in an interview that Leedskalnin would ask him to take a walk at each destination; when he returned, the blocks had already been loaded or unloaded from his truck. He saw no equipment, or tools with which to move the stones. Teenagers who lived nearby claimed that they saw Leedskalnin lay hands upon one of the blocks, and begin singing. They swore that the block levitated as he did this. During the years it took to build the Coral Castle, no neighbor ever saw any heavy equipment, and Leedskalnin never hired a single worker, to aid in the castle’s construction. On the 8th of June, 1992, I had a premonition of a motorcycle accident I hadn’t had yet. The vision was VERY specific; if I failed to wear my full face helmet, I would not survive. Three days later, to the hour, I was cut off by a car travelling at half my speed. I hit the highway at 70 mph, face first, and skidded for more than the length of a football field, on my face. My helmet looked like it just had a close encounter with an electric grinder. If I had not heeded my intuition, I would be dead.”
It has been known and documented for many years that people can do incredible things, I have no doubt that at times the human mind can tap into the natural forces that surround us and use them .. as I stated before maybe this is an ability mainly dormant within us that under certain circumstances can be used. The human brain is a complex organ that we understand very little about, we know that throughout our life’s we only use about 10% of its full capacity, perhaps in the circumstances you have mentioned those people have been able to use, for a short time, the other 90% of their brain.
As to your premonition, why do you think God allowed you to see your fate, do you think he wanted you to survive for a higher purpose or was it the devil that allowed you to see the future, maybe he saw you as a perfect vessel to spread disharmony and therefore ”saved” you. I am always baffled by the fact that when people have a “vision” they always assume the good ones came from god, the bad ones from the devil, its almost as if each vision has the dialling code attached, 000 for god, 666 for the devil, or is it more likely that you tapped into a space-time fold that showed you the future or even more likelier still your own conscience showed you what could happen if you failed to wear your full face helmet, the fact that it did happen just underlines the untapped power of our own minds.
Glad you did wear it by the way.
You are right again, technology is advancing at a breakneck pace and the things you have stated may very well come true or indeed may already be true .. we may yet travel to other universes, not as physical beings, but as thought, science knows that in order to travel the vast distances to other galaxies we would need to travel faster than light .. however they also know that the closer you get to the speed of light the more energy is required to accelerate until such a state is reached that the amount of energy required is greater than that contain within the universe ie. We cannot ever hope to travel faster than light, unless we utilise black holes, black holes are wells in the space-time fabric, they bend and warp “normal” space-time until the normal laws of physics cease to work and therefore theoretically you can arrive at a place before you left.
Eg. Take a piece of paper, curve the paper into a ‘C’ shape, now imagine you are on the top of the paper and you want to reach the bottom, in order to do that you have to follow the curve (space-time is curved), what a black hole does is to burrow through space-time, it would be like putting a hole in the top of the paper and dropping a rope down until it touched the bottom, you could climb down that rope and arrive before you left, shortest distance between to points.
If you take your statement about good and evil to its ultimate conclusion then you are saying that nothing can exist without an opposite .. not true!
When the universe was created it created matter and anti-matter (good & evil if you will), each matter, anti-matter particle actively searched for its opposite in order to mutually destroy each other .. how ever there were slightly more matter particles than anti-matter, about 1 per 1 billion, these could not find a partner and therefore still exist today, if the opposite was true, more anti-matter, then we would be living in an anti-matter universe.. well of course we could be already, what we call matter could in fact be anti-matter .. sorry I digressed .. the point is that our whole universe is built from those extra matter particles .. my point being that something can exist without its opposite.
Oh and surely the concept of good and evil are purely human concepts anyway and as you said, we are living in an illusion, then the necessity for good and evil to be opposite sides of the same coin is neither here nor there. Basically in the “real” reality there may not even be good and evil.
Also if god is the all powerful being who can create life just by thinking about it, why did he/she not create a universe with no need for evil. Why not create a universe of only good?
Who says Saddam was evil? .. we as a society do, but how do we know he wasn’t just acting the part that “god” laid out for him. Who is to say that the devil isn’t really god and god really the devil .. just think about it. We have god on ones side saying we must hold down out natural instincts (instincts he made us with btw) in order to become closer to him/her and enter the kingdom of heaven, on the other side we have the devil telling us, hey man go with your instincts, do unto others to the whole of you will … sounds to me like the devil would be a better persona for creating us, the one telling us .. I created you with freewill .. now go use it.
As I have, nor will ever, live in a place where there is no evil, I cannot answer you question as to whether free will would exist, you seem to have a habit of asking questions that you know cannot be answered, to me that says you use these ideas to re-enforce your theories knowing that your words cannot be refuted in scientific or spiritual answers, simply because the answers do not exist and anyone who does try to debate with you will only end up trapping themselves. I have tried to give you MY ideas, but in the end they will always fail to answer your statements. It is the “chicken and the egg” syndrome.
Hell maybe the universe was created by, for want of a better word, god, but I still maintain that this entity is NOT eternal or infinite .. he/she makes mistakes and therefore in my opinion is as tied to linear progression as the rest of us.
You still have to address a number of points I raised in my last reply, or do you just to wish to “move the goalposts” each time a question arises that doesn’t quite fit your ideals?
Colin -
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Just had another thought;
If as you state everything comes from energy and energy has always exsisted, then there can never be an orginal thought, orginality by definition is something unique .. but if thoughts are energy (which they must be) and that energy has always exsisted then the thought has always exsisted in one form or another, so therefore nothing is orginal, it is just a remould of something else.
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“Surely the concept of eternity was developed by human kind and therefore by your own arguments could or could not be true, if we only exist in an illusion the eternity must be part of that illusion.”
Obviously, you don’t listen. Our finite minds do not have the capacity to imaging eternity. We think in linear terms, from point a to point b. This is time oriented thinking. Eternity is timeless, we are not. We have no reference for something infinite. Eternity simply is. Now for the second part of this “argument.” Is a clock maker part of the clock? Is a painter part of the painting? Unless you are a complete moron, your answer should be no. So why would the force that created the illusion, BE PART OF THE ILLUSION?
“I don’t look at time as linear, I know it has an Up and down as well as a left and right.”
Going from top to bottom, or bottom to top, IS linear!! The concept is based on sequential development. Put a car on a circular track, and drive until you run out of gas, and you still went from point a to point b, no matter how many times you went around. The figure eight (the symbol for infinity) is no different than the car driving in circles. All it’s doing is repeating the same motions, over and over. That isn’t infinity, its repetition. Man simply does not understand eternity.
“Dr Steven Hawking has a theory that there doesn’t actually have to be a beginning of the universe, they know (in theory) that the universe was created from a singularity .. however normal laws do not exists within a singularity, they break down. So with the absence of those laws energy COULD be created from nothing.”
I am familiar with Hawking’s work. First of all, there are no such things as NORMAL laws. Second, WHERE DID THE BLOODY SINGULARITY COME FROM??? Where did the space surrounding it come from??? Regardless of the THEORIES concerning the inner workings of a singularity, the forces that make up a singularity still have to come from somewhere.
“black holes are wells in the space-time fabric, they bend and warp “normal” space-time until the normal laws of physics cease to work and therefore theoretically you can arrive at a place before you left.”
Black holes ARE wells in the time space fabric??? And when EXACTLY did you travel through one to find out??? The most likely THEORY, concerning black holes, is that they are collapsed Neutron Stars. If you tried to send a ship through that, it would be CRUSHED by the star’s intense gravity.
“I am always baffled by the fact that when people have a “vision” they always assume the good ones came from god, the bad ones from the devil”
How many times do I have to ask this question? WHERE DID I SAY THAT??? I do not remember making a distinction between God or the devil, or my survival being a good thing or a bad thing!!!
“If as you state everything comes from energy and energy has always exsisted, then there can never be an orginal thought, orginality by definition is something unique .. but if thoughts are energy (which they must be) and that energy has always exsisted then the thought has always exsisted in one form or another, so therefore nothing is orginal, it is just a remould of something else.”
True. But here, to our perceptions, it’s original. If humanity has never heard an idea, it is original to us, even though the concept has always existed.
“If you take your statement about good and evil to its ultimate conclusion then you are saying that nothing can exist without an opposite .. not true!
When the universe was created it created matter and anti-matter (good & evil if you will), each matter, anti-matter particle actively searched for its opposite in order to mutually destroy each other .. how ever there were slightly more matter particles than anti-matter, about 1 per 1 billion, these could not find a partner and therefore still exist today, if the opposite was true, more anti-matter, then we would be living in an anti-matter universe.. well of course we could be already, what we call matter could in fact be anti-matter .. sorry I digressed .. the point is that our whole universe is built from those extra matter particles .. my point being that something can exist without its opposite.”
Did you REALLY take my comments so far out of context? Seriously?? You actually got matter and anti-matter out of choosing between the right and wrong aspects of a choice?? WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DOING THE RIGHT THING OR THE WRONG THING???
“You seem fairly certain that reality is far from what it seems, yet better minds have debated this very issue and have, as yet, not reached a verdict, do you claim to be better equipped to do this than them?”
You seem fairly certain that the minds debating this issue ARE better. How do you KNOW I’m not equipped to take them on? You CERTAINLY haven’t come up with an argument to challenge me.
“you seem to have a habit of asking questions that you know cannot be answered”
I’m pretty sure that a good percentage of my arguments have consisted of statements, as well as questions that CAN’T BE ANSWERED.
“to me that says you use these ideas to re-enforce your theories knowing that your words cannot be refuted in scientific or spiritual answers, simply because the answers do not exist and anyone who does try to debate with you will only end up trapping themselves.”
I’ll debate this issue with anyone, as long as they stick to the topic, resisting the urge to go off on tangents like you; wells in the time space fabric, matter and anti-matter, something from nothing within a singularity that just HAPPENED to exist. PLEASE! You ask me to comment on all of you “points,” but I think I’ve illustrated how pointLESS they’ve been, and addressing all of your tangents could take the rest of my life. Since you seem to be arguing for nothing more than for the sake of arguing, and nothing I say is going to alter your flawed perspective, why would I keep indulging that? And don’t tell me that’s not what you’re doing. After all it was you that pointed out that anyone who tries to debate me will only end up trapping themselves. Why would someone who feels that way walk into a trap; unless it was to cause a ruckus, and nothing more? Why would I dedicate so much time to that? Vaya Con Dios, my obstinate friend.
Mark
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I listen well enough and all I have done is to use some of your own comments against you, it is you who cannot understand the point I am making ... so i will explain.
Eternity IS a man made concept, how can it be anything else .. you say that eternity just is .. how do you know eternity just is, how do you know eternity is not like your car just going round in circles, forever caught in a repeating loop .. it is your idea that eternity just is, enternity surely didn't think "hey I'm eternity and I just am" ..
I apoligise that my comparesions between good and evil, matter and anti-matter it was a bit of a stretch.
Again though I must say that good and evil are human concepts .. we invented them.
I think I have presented enough statements to challenge you, although you do have a tendency to try and ridicule people who fo infact challenge you.
On the evidence you have submitted here I would say you don't have the equipment to challenge those minds, you certainly have some interesting theories, theories that you cannot back up with anything solid .. but still interesting.
I'll expand on the point of the singularity, if you are familiar with Dr Hawkings work you should know that he has theorized that it is possible, under certain circumstance, for something to be created out of nothing, I used the phrase normal laws for ease. I will past a section from a public lecture given by Dr Hawking, it explains my point about the singularity and its origins much better than I can.
"It seems that Quantum theory, on the other hand, can predict how the universe will begin. Quantum theory introduces a new idea, that of imaginary time. Imaginary time may sound like science fiction, and it has been brought into Doctor Who. But nevertheless, it is a genuine scientific concept. One can picture it in the following way. One can think of ordinary, real, time as a horizontal line. On the left, one has the past, and on the right, the future. But there's another kind of time in the vertical direction. This is called imaginary time, because it is not the kind of time we normally experience. But in a sense, it is just as real, as what we call real time.
The three directions in space, and the one direction of imaginary time, make up what is called a Euclidean space-time. I don't think anyone can picture a four dimensional curve space. But it is not too difficult to visualise a two dimensional surface, like a saddle, or the surface of a football.
In fact, James Hartle of the University of California Santa Barbara, and I have proposed that space and imaginary time together, are indeed finite in extent, but without boundary. They would be like the surface of the Earth, but with two more dimensions. The surface of the Earth is finite in extent, but it doesn't have any boundaries or edges. I have been round the world, and I didn't fall off.
If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down. And there wouldn't be any boundaries, to the imaginary time space-time, just as there aren't any boundaries to the surface of the Earth. This absence of boundaries means that the laws of physics would determine the state of the universe uniquely, in imaginary time. But if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time. One would still expect some sort of Big Bang singularity in real time. So real time would still have a beginning. But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system. It would not be determined by anything outside the physical universe, that we observe.
The no boundary condition, is the statement that the laws of physics hold everywhere. Clearly, this is something that one would like to believe, but it is a hypothesis. One has to test it, by comparing the state of the universe that it would predict, with observations of what the universe is actually like. If the observations disagreed with the predictions of the no boundary hypothesis, we would have to conclude the hypothesis was false. There would have to be something outside the universe, to wind up the clockwork, and set the universe going. Of course, even if the observations do agree with the predictions, that does not prove that the no boundary proposal is correct. But one's confidence in it would be increased, particularly because there doesn't seem to be any other natural proposal, for the quantum state of the universe.
The no boundary proposal, predicts that the universe would start at a single point, like the North Pole of the Earth. But this point wouldn't be a singularity, like the Big Bang. Instead, it would be an ordinary point of space and time, like the North Pole is an ordinary point on the Earth, or so I'm told. I have not been there myself.
According to the no boundary proposal, the universe would have expanded in a smooth way from a single point. As it expanded, it would have borrowed energy from the gravitational field, to create matter. As any economist could have predicted, the result of all that borrowing, was inflation. The universe expanded and borrowed at an ever-increasing rate. Fortunately, the debt of gravitational energy will not have to be repaid until the end of the universe.
Eventually, the period of inflation would have ended, and the universe would have settled down to a stage of more moderate growth or expansion. However, inflation would have left its mark on the universe. The universe would have been almost completely smooth, but with very slight irregularities. These irregularities are so little, only one part in a hundred thousand, that for years people looked for them in vain. But in 1992, the Cosmic Background Explorer satellite, COBE, found these irregularities in the microwave background radiation. It was an historic moment. We saw back to the origin of the universe. The form of the fluctuations in the microwave background agree closely with the predictions of the no boundary proposal. These very slight irregularities in the universe would have caused some regions to have expanded less fast than others. Eventually, they would have stopped expanding, and would have collapsed in on themselves, to form stars and galaxies. Thus the no boundary proposal can explain all the rich and varied structure, of the world we live in. What does the no boundary proposal predict for the future of the universe? Because it requires that the universe is finite in space, as well as in imaginary time, it implies that the universe will re-collapse eventually. However, it will not re-collapse for a very long time, much longer than the 15 billion years it has already been expanding. So, you will have time to sell your government bonds, before the end of the universe is nigh. Quite what you invest in then, I don't know."
I believe what he is trying to say that the universe is a self contained system and has never, nor will ever, require the assistence of an outside force (god) to help it out, for all i know the universe may be god, may have always exsisted and may continue to exsist, in some form, for infinity.
my perspective may be floored, as a human being i am floored .. but I do not need to rely on "something out there" in order to try and understand who or what I am, neither do I make statements such as you have in your introduction to this contest and then spend a good deal of time trying to convince others that YOUR god exsists in direct contrast to your introduction.
Basically in my eyes you are nothing more than a TV evangeliest who just happens to have some therioes .. If I had wanted to "cause a ruckus" I would have been far less polite than I have been.
I have asked you why, if god is so perfect, he/she created a universe so full of flaws.
If everything is made from energy (which is true to a certain degree) then everything that has been or will be is contained within the sphere of the universe and we may under certain circumstances be able to glimpse those events which have aready occured or which are yet to occur ... EVERY SINGLE THING YOU HAVE WRITTEN IS A CONCEPT CREATED BY A HUMAN MIND .. In this instence yours. Your words imply things which you know people will react to then you have the pleasure of saying "where did I say that", implications are as strong as the actual written words.
I'll leave this debate, you will say it is because I cannot back up my side of it .. that is your choice, your reality .. mine is sumwhat different.
Oh .. try reading this about black holes .. wells in space-time .. theory yes, bit like your ramblings here.
http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html
Its under "Public Lectures" - "Does God Play Dice"
Good-day
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“Eternity IS a man made concept, how can it be anything else .. you say that eternity just is .. how do you know eternity just is, how do you know eternity is not like your car just going round in circles, forever caught in a repeating loop .. it is your idea that eternity just is, enternity surely didn't think "hey I'm eternity and I just am" ..”
I’ll explain this one last time. Nothing, as defined by Webster’s Dictionary, states that nothing is the absence of all things. In other words, NO-thing, no matter, no energy, no time, no space, no life, NOTHING. If no BUILDING BLOCKS exist, our reality does not exist. At NO POINT was there EVER nothing, because if it had ever been so, it would always be so. The only conclusion left is that SOMETHING has ALWAYS existed. This is one of those points that I made that CAN’T BE ARGUED, OR REFUTED! Deal with it. Now, you can continue to label everything you don’t want to believe in as “human concepts” if you like. I don’t care. I have a lecture to give for a school of dolphins, and next week, I’m speaking to a troop of monkeys. Ridiculous concept, right? Dolphins and monkeys don’t question their origins. They can be trained to do almost anything for a fish, or a banana, but no test has ever resulted in the conclusion that dolphins and monkeys reason beyond their own basic instincts. Animals are an interesting bunch, do you know that they kill their own kind for fun, rather than food? Yup, they tear organs out of their victims, then store them in freezers, as trophies. Oops, my mistake, that kind of thing only happens among the human race. Yes, we are a sorry group of miscreants, aren’t we. Some of us even justify such actions, as being perfectly natural, because they don’t WANT the concept of right and wrong to exist. Yet that doesn’t stop them from protesting the war in Iraq, under the belief that war is WRONG. Hypocrites!! If good and evil do not exist, NOTHING is wrong. Serial killers aren’t wrong, rapists aren’t wrong, and mass murderers aren’t wrong, because I say good and evil don’t exist! I think that a list should be made available to all rapists, thieves, pedophiles, and murderers; a list of everyone who rejects the concept of good and evil. I think that they should have immunity whenever they commit a violent crime against someone on that list. After all, good and evil doesn’t really exist, they’re just man made concepts.
Is a bear evil for killing a man? Of course not! Instinct drives him/her. A mother bear might attack a human to protect her cubs, while a male is usually marking his territory. A man, on the other hand, will kidnap a child, torture that child, break that child’s arms and legs, so the child can’t escape, rape that child repeatedly, and then peel the skin from that child, so it either suffocates, or dies from exposure. That horror was the result of sentient choice. Animals have no concept of right or wrong, not even when they’re trained. They do what they’re trained to do, because the trainer as established himself/herself as the alpha. They do what the alpha wants. But killing is not viewed as wrong by the animal kingdom. They kill to survive, and protect their own. Man, however, calls it wrong. If a man believes that beating an old woman to death is wrong, is it ok to do it? If I tied you up, stripped you down, covered you in honey, and buried you neck deep in a fire ant hill, would that be justified under the law of the jungle? What if I set up a lawn chair, brought out a cooler with a case of beer, and watched with enjoyment as the ants slowly ate you alive? Would that be evil to you? If I believe it is evil, and do it anyway, doesn’t that understanding of the concept make it evil? Whether good and evil are man made concepts or not, our knowledge and understanding of right and wrong, make them real.
“I think I have presented enough statements to challenge you, although you do have a tendency to try and ridicule people who fo infact challenge you.”
Actually I feel more frustrated by your off-topic tangents, and your obstinate arguments for the sake of arguing. At no point in this exchange have I felt challenged. One would have to explain how something could come from nothing to do that.
“This is called imaginary time, because it is not the kind of time we normally experience. But in a sense, it is just as real, as what we call real time.”
There you go presenting THEORY as fact again. In NO sense is imaginary time anything like real time. We have the ability to measure real time. As far as quantum THEORY is concerned. Special relativity makes a set of predictions, based on well-established assumptions, such as the limiting velocity of the speed of light and the absence of action at a distance. Experiment supports special relativity. Quantum theory also makes a set of predictions. These imply that information is transferred from one entangled particle to another “instantaneously;” that is, action at a distance and communication at faster than the speed of light. If the predictions of quantum theory are correct, then the predictions of Special relativity are violated. However, special relativity is correct; therefore quantum theory is incomplete. Regardless of the continuing battle between relativity and quantum theory, you seem to be missing the point again. Nothing is the ABSOLUTE absence of all things. That includes things at a subatomic level! What part of ABSOLUTE NON-EXISTENCE do you not understand? Get it through your head, IT CAN’T HAPPEN! I realize that you, and your heroes of string and quantum theory, have no real reference for absolute nothing. You seem to think it excludes certain things in order to make your THEORIES seem plausible. Absolute nothing, or non-existence means no ANYTHING. That cannot be adjusted to fit a paradigm that would also be as non-existent as the “laws” of physics. So please stop wasting my time with this nonsense.
“According to the no boundary proposal, the universe would have expanded in a smooth way from a single point. As it expanded, it would have borrowed energy from the gravitational field, to create matter. As any economist could have predicted, the result of all that borrowing, was inflation. The universe expanded and borrowed at an ever-increasing rate. Fortunately, the debt of gravitational energy will not have to be repaid until the end of the universe.”
Another waste of my time. Boundless and timeless does not suggest an expanding universe. It suggests NO universe, at least not one with conforming shapes and sizes. No smooth expansion, no space, no time, and no dimensions. Eternity would be an unimaginable force unto itself.
“for all i know the universe may be god, may have always exsisted and may continue to exsist, in some form, for infinity.”
FINALLY! You’re starting to get it, except for the form part anyway. Also, the universe is finite, it’s not all there is.
“I have asked you why, if god is so perfect, he/she created a universe so full of flaws.”
Just because you disagree with aspects of this illusion, doesn’t mean your “flaws” are actually flaws. If the creation was designed the way it is, how is that flawed? It is only that from your perspective. But, as part of the creation, what significance does your perspective have? You WANT to believe that our universe just happened, that life evolved out of nothing. The most common reason for this, is that your pride won’t let you bow to the judgment of any being. People with this perspective, do whatever they like, regardless of the “consequences” that others warn against. I have no love of organized religion, or the misguided traditions that keep them from seeing the truth. They like to use scripture as a soldier uses a weapon. I get that. But your side of the equation is just as obstinate and hypocritical. I’m debating closed minded Christians on this contest, as much as I’m debating closed minded non-believers, like yourself. “Christians” like the status quo as much as you do, and they don’t like being told that the 5 to 20% they dedicate to God, throughout the course of their lives, isn’t good enough. They trust the world more than they do God. So I understand not wanting to share a paradigm with some of the hypocrites that infest the faith. I get that too. But I’m tired of your tangents. I’m tired of repeating something that should be EASY to understand. But I suppose when one doesn’t want to believe something, they will spend the rest of their lives trying to prove it wrong. So have fun with that Colin. Vaya Con Dios.
Mark
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Ok, this is getting a bit heated. I'll apoligise for my abstract, tangent thinking .. thats just me.
Lets start this again and si I have it clear in my head I'll list a few things and make a few statements and you can tell me if I am getting it wrong.
So the theory you have is that God is everything, he/she has always been and always will be.
We, our earth, the sun, our galaxy, the whole universe is made up of energy that orginated from god .. ie. something had to be used to create all this and as god was the only thing around, all this is created from parts of god him/her self.
everything has "weight" in the universe, not a physical weight, but metaphorical weight .. including our thoughts, good, evil etc
now as this "weight" has to be made up of energy, it must have come from the universe aka god.
therefore everything we are, say, think or do orginates from god .. so in effect we have no need to worship a "higher" being because we are already part of that "higher" being .. all be it that we cannot comprehend being part of him/her in our limited exsistence. Congratulations you have just made every religion, every doctrine redundant.
good and evil are inherent in all human life, we all have the capacity to be good as much as we do to be evil .. again these "ideas" have to have "weight" and are made up of energy from the universe ie god, therefore god must have evil as part of his/her makeup and, in our limited views, has flaws .. I mean we do see evil as a flaw.
Now I have a question for you;
How do you, or any of us, know that god is not evil and all the time we have spent trying to meet his/her expectations has been in vain because its not what he/she wants .. perhaps he/she wants us to be evil, to kill, maim or what ever .. I mean we are all part of him/her so these feelings must orginate from somewhere within god.
In effect it doesn't matter what I do or do not do in this life. I could be a person whos gives up everything and spends my time searching for god, I could be a mass murderer aka Fred West, a child molestor or even I could just be me .. in the end I am just a part of god and I will become part of him/her again when I die .. WHATEVER I do in this life.
"I came with nothing, I will leave with nothing"
I suppose in the end it all boils down to faith, I make no excuses for being what I am .. if that makes me part of the "crowd" then so be it .. you are just the same all be it from a different "crowd" .. I only air my beliefs in public in debates such as this, I don't try to convert others to what I think .. you do and again I must ask is that not just another shade of evil.
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“nowhere have I stated any of the THERIOES as facts”
How soon they forget. Let me remind you:
“black holes are wells in the space-time fabric, they bend and warp “normal” space-time until the normal laws of physics cease to work and therefore theoretically you can arrive at a place before you left.”
Science has absolutely NO idea what black holes really are! When describing Hawking’s best guess, with regards to black holes, using the opening line: “black holes ARE wells in the space-time fabric,” you are stating it as fact.
How about this one:
“everything has "weight" in the universe, not a physical weight, but metaphorical weight .. including our thoughts, good, evil etc. now as this "weight" has to be made up of energy, it must have come from the universe aka god.”
Everything HAS weight. EVERYTHING! Metaphor is a FIGURATIVE reference, not a factual one! Why is it being stated here as FACT? What, because you believe it, and therefore it MUST be true? Sounds a bit like the Christian argument: “God exists because the bible says He does.” And why do you believe that God must be the universe if He is everything? Why, because you can SEE the universe? Since you cannot look beyond the limited perceptions of your five senses, how do you know that’s EVERYTHONG? Do you really think that we could possibly understand EVERYTHING that exists?? Your mind can understand the best guesses the priests of science have given you, but it rejects the concept that something eternal exists beyond what your priests can define. The universe is filled with matter. The universe conforms to linear progression. The universe is governed by time and space. I am always amused by people who THINK the true reality would be one their finite, linear eyes would perceive, or their finite, linear minds could understand. Whatever exists beyond the ILLUSION of our “universe,” it is outside of our capabilities of understanding. But be my guest, keep believing that a dust mote, like yourself, could possibly understand eternity. All we truly know is that we do not know. We can deduce a few inconsistencies with the concepts of others, as I have, but none of us can know the absolute truth, until the lie disappears, and we are freed from the illusion. There is a reason for everything, and for why we are here. There are no accidents. But you can go on believing that we are. That is your prerogative. Believing it, however, won’t make it true.
“How do you, or any of us, know that god is not evil and all the time we have spent trying to meet his/her expectations has been in vain because its not what he/she wants .. perhaps he/she wants us to be evil, to kill, maim or what ever .. I mean we are all part of him/her so these feelings must orginate from somewhere within god.”
Good and evil result from choice. We do unto others, things we would never want done unto us. We end another person’s life, not knowing whether they continue after death or not. Logically, if God exists, then there is something after death. He would only be taking lives from this reality into another. Is that evil? Teaching us the consequence of choice, through the experiences of mortal life; is that evil? Are you truly happy? Do you feel complete? Do your peers understand you? You say you know who you are. So without using definite, or indefinite articles, tell me. That’s another one of those TRAP questions. You see, you can tell me WHAT you are, WHAT you like, WHAT you want, WHAT your goals and dreams are, but you can’t TELL anyone WHO you are. No one can look through your eyes and understand what you see. No one can walk in your shoes and know your journey. In that respect, you are COMPLETELY alone. I thought I’d explain that before you lied to me and told me you were complete. No one is. Why would a loving God create you with so many flaws, right? First, this “life” is just a tiny extension of the real you. And it appears to serve the purpose of education. If our experiences, good or bad, teach us the lessons we need, is that evil? Even if this reality were created as a form of amusement, would any experience be evil? Of course, we would only be able to answer these questions once we knew what purpose this reality serves. Right now, we believe this is all there is, and doing unto others as we would not want them to do unto us is evil. But if, when these eyes close, for the last time, another opens, what will you think of this experience then?
“but as usual with all eccentrics you listen to only what you want to (usually your own voice) and pooh pooh anything else”
No, I present a better argument. That should be obvious, since it is you still trying to prove me wrong.
“you give dictionary definitions of what is infinity and nothing .. man made words I believe”
There’s that old “get out of jail free card” again. Everything you don’t WANT to believe is a man made concept, while all those man made concepts you do believe, are truth to your hypocritical mind. Thanks for illustrating that again for me.
“you also say man has no concept of these so how can you say with any authority that nothing actually means nothing”
Man has no reference for non-existence, nor does he understand a non-linear eternity. The fact that these cannot be accurately defined, should convince you that they are more than just man made words. I say these things with authority, because they are the truth. Whether you believe it or not, the nature of the truth does not change.
“In effect it doesn't matter what I do or do not do in this life. I could be a person whos gives up everything and spends my time searching for god, I could be a mass murderer aka Fred West, a child molestor or even I could just be me .. in the end I am just a part of god and I will become part of him/her again when I die .. WHATEVER I do in this life.”
Indeed. But then again, being part of God, might influence the way your spirit self judges the actions of your mortal self. Without the flesh to make excuses, or to justify your actions, you might have a difficult time with that whole judgment thing. Since we would all be part of the source, we WOULD be able to look through each other’s eyes, and experience their journey, as it related to us. We would feel what they felt, and see what they saw, as a result of our contact with them. The executive who stole another person’s ideas to secure a promotion, then fired the victim of that deception, would get to experience how his action affected the rest of that person’s life. Do you really believe that our actions have no consequence? I’ve seen karma at work too many times to dismiss the possibility of it’s existence. Consequence does exist. What form it will take beyond this “life,” I cannot say. But I am sure of one thing: if another door opens when this one closes, we will not be able to enter until we wipe our feet. For it will be consequence staring back at us from the other side of that door.
“you are only trying to sell your own brand of slavery .. maybe not with physical chains, but with mental ones, tying people to YOUR way of thinking, YOUR ideals, you may dress it up in obscurity but you are still a two bit preacher out for a free ride.”
Is that what you think the truth is Colin? Slavery? And I suppose rejecting everything but your own man made concept is freedom, right? I want people to look beyond their perceptions of reality, and consider all possibilities, instead of closing their minds, as you have, to everything but their own flawed paradigm. Being open to logical probabilities is much more liberating than stubbornly focusing on one path and ignoring all others. Call that freedom if you like, but from what I’ve read of your comments, you’re just following the theories (best guesses) of others. Another follower, led by the priests of string theory and quantum mechanics. A sheep, looking out from his sheep pen, at Christians in their sheep pens, and saying YOU’RE the followers, you’re in chains. Hypocrite. You are as much a follower as any Christian. And before you try to convince me otherwise, were you the one who wrote the papers you gave me links to in your comments? Answer: NO! It was Hawking’s work, among others. You are as constrained by the chains of your “belief” as your Christian counterparts are. You listen to the priests of your faith by reading their books and articles, and watching them interviewed on the science channel.
Like a closed minded Christian would, you tell people like me that our beliefs are based on man made concepts, and the burden of proof is on us. Meanwhile, EVERYTHING you believe depends on man made concepts; yet you commit to this path without the burden of proof being met. Hypocrite. Does clinging to one unproven idea somehow make you better than the Christian who clings to his? What a sad and shackled world you live in. I have presented the truth here, not because I want people to follow me and provide me with a “free ride,” as you called it, but because they need to know that there exists possibilities beyond that basket they’ve put all their eggs into. These people are all over the world Colin, just like you, how are they going to give me a free ride? I want people to think for themselves, objectively, weighing ALL the possibilities, instead of close mindedly rejecting everything but the unproven faith THEY follow, as you do. Hell, your ENTIRE belief system is a result of unproven man made concepts. And when you reach the end of your life, you will have to look back on your journey; perhaps then you will see that it was navigated, not by you, but by the GUESSWORK of others. Who are you to label anything you can’t disprove as bullshit? It seems to me that most of your “argument” was nothing more than that itself. Please don’t bring your hypocrisies to my contest anymore. Believe what you will, that is your right, and I would not take that away for you. But save your name calling, your tangents, and your hypocrisies for someone less equipped to deal with them. Cheers.
Mark
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I am me, that is all I am, nothing more nothing less .. Does it really matter that my life may be held up to view, does anybody really think that "God" really cares what I have done in my life .. I don't think so, I will be just a very, very small part of what "God" is.
To be honest, all this debate really means nothing to me .. i've goaded you into your present stance .. played devils advocate, as soon as I saw you first set of comments to others I knew you would be a fun wind-up and so you have proven.
I have my own therioes on this world and the universe, nothing of them has been revealed here to you, however when it comes down to the crunch Mark you have nothing more than I do .. theroies .. no proof, no evidence simply ideas that appeal to you and a few others .. perhaps.
Who am I to label anything I can't disprove as bullshit ... as I stated at the start of this reply .. I am what I am, nothing more, nothing less.
you've given me somethins to think about Mark, but mostly you've given me a laugh ... Orginal thought, you probably wouldn't know one if it bit your arse based on what you have said here.
Good-bye and good luck, youe going to need it ... lmao.
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“does anybody really think that "God" really cares what I have done in my life .. I don't think so,”
I certainly hope you’re right about that, since being wrong would truly suck.
“To be honest, all this debate really means nothing to me .. i've goaded you into your present stance .. played devils advocate, as soon as I saw you first set of comments to others I knew you would be a fun wind-up and so you have proven.”
Whatever you say Colin. I’m glad I could oblige your “plan.” LOL
“I have my own therioes on this world and the universe, nothing of them has been revealed here to you, however when it comes down to the crunch Mark you have nothing more than I do .. theroies .. no proof, no evidence simply ideas that appeal to you and a few others .. perhaps.”
Absolutely correct. The thing I do have, that you don’t is the courage to present my theories for anyone to try and refute; which, by the way, has not happened yet.
Who am I to label anything I can't disprove as bullshit.
Well, at least you learned that.
“you've given me somethins to think about Mark, but mostly you've given me a laugh”
But if you can’t label them as bullshit, do you always laugh at things you can’t disprove anyway?
“Orginal thought, you probably wouldn't know one if it bit your arse based on what you have said here.”
Do you also TRY to insult or belittle the people who present ideas you can’t disprove? That sounds a bit playground to me.
“Good-bye and good luck, youe going to need it ... lmao”
Do you think? Are you assuming that someone is going to come along, pull a rabbit out of his or her hat, and actually refute me? That is not unlikely. But good luck to you with sorting all of this out. That is, if you have the intellect, humility, and courage to consider things you can’t disprove. God bless.
Mark
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I love it when you try to goad me into a retort .. sorry Mark not this time.
Your time on th stage has ended for me, lets bring on another act .. this one has become quite a bore. -
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I just tell it like I see it, or how it is revealed to me, anyway. Pride is what causes someone to FEEL goaded by that. By the way, did you give up on answering that "who are you" question yet? Cheers.
Mark
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"I am what I am, nothing more, nothing less"
"I just tell it like I see it"
Focus on those words Mark, as YOU see it, not as many others do, does that make their way of seeing it any less of value than yours.
How it was revealed to you ... get a life Mark, go see a shrink .. next you'll be telling us you are the other son of God .. I don't need to try and ridicule you Mark, you are doing a fine job of that all by yourself.
Why do you continue to try and stuff YOUR ideals, YOUR theories down everybody elses throats.
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“Focus on those words Mark, as YOU see it, not as many others do, does that make their way of seeing it any less of value than yours.”
Scholars of the 15th century saw the world as being flat. Christopher Columbus believed it was round. Does that mean the scholar’s way of seeing it was any less valuable than his?
"I am what I am, nothing more, nothing less"
Indeed, but the question was “WHO are you.” it’s a simple enough question, right? Knowing WHAT you are is easy; you are the product of your environment, and your experiences. Who you are, is another story altogether. Keep trying to answer my question Colin. I think you’ll find that I’m right about that as well. Cheers.
Mark
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Using other peoples quotes and ideas AGAIN Mark, an I thought you wanted orginal thought ... Seems you want more from others than you are prepared to give yourself.
As to the answer to your question, there is no complete or satisifactory answer, which is why I answer I am what I am or I am who I am ... Tell you what Mark why don't you tell me WHO you are.
I don't discount your theories, not at all. I discount You!
Hey Mark, I wonder what you will have to say to the following;
Your theories are not new at all, they are based around ideas that are 2,000+ years old oh and its nothing to do with the Christian religion either, you have taken a concept and just added a little modern twist to it, nothing you have quoted here is your own orginal thought simply because the theories are already documented elsewhere .. I'll leave you to try and figure out what I am talking about, lets just see how intelligent you are.
Have fun.
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The point, Colin, was to illustrate what you don’t know. Once a proud mind realizes that it is not as impregnable as it believed, it will not, so quickly, discount ideas that challenge its own. I asked you to describe who you are because I know it can’t be done. It was you that needed to learn that lesson, just as I once did. One can describe what he is, what he believes, what he likes and doesn’t like, what kind of parent he is, what he does for a living…etc., but he cannot explain his soul, with words. You, Colin, are far more than you have ever given yourself credit for. Far more than words can describe. YOU cannot be defined, any more than eternity can. That alone should tell you that you are no random accident. After all, accidents can be defined. An accident can be put into a box, you cannot. I’m sorry if being unable to refute my points has caused you to hate the messenger, but this was never about me. I am just a faceless All Poetry user. I mean nothing to you, or your journey. All I can do is hope that you find the answers you seek. God bless.
Mark
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My mind is not proud, and I hate noone, please don't place words that are not mine onto this page.
IF there are answers I have no doubt that WHEN the time comes I will find them. I just don't think your answers are the truth. -
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That’s fine Colin. You’ll have to forgive me though; I’m going to wait until someone actually refutes my answers before writing them off as false. As long as they hold up to the many challenges leveled against them, I will remain confident that they are the truth.
One more thing.
“My mind is not proud,”
I beg to differ.
“IF there are answers I have no doubt that WHEN the time comes I will find them.”
If there are answers, you have no doubt that WHEN the time comes YOU will find them! HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY! You’re my hero. Look, up in the sky! It’s a bird! It’s a plane! No, it’s MAJOR PRIDE! Just don’t let him hear you calling him that; he thinks he’s humble. HUMBLE? HIM??? HA HA HA HA HAAH!
God bless.
Mark
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Someone stole my thought!
It's not original but I promise you, just the other day I was thinking this very same thing. The person who stole it, (or should I say borrowed it) did exceedingly well with expressing it. Here, take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPBH57BWhpE
Love Ya ♥
Renee
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Well, what a bummer. I guess that means you don't have to try. What a convenient break that was.
Mark
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There is nothing new under the sun. Even your insistent rambling is vain, and utter nonsense in God's ears.
A joke for you;
Let's call the man Mark. Mark had the opportunity to have a conversation with God, face to face. Mark must have been highly favored because in history, a face to face conversation with God had yet to occur. Anyway...
After a few minutes of God's time was spent He told Mark that He had to move on. "Wait Lord"; said Mark, "May I ask a few questions before you leave?" God told Mark yes but no more than three questions. Mark smiled because he knew just what three questions he would ask.
Question one: "Lord, how much is a moment to you"?
God's Answer: "One thousand years".
Question Two: "How much is a penny to you"?
God's Answer: "A billion dollars".
Question Three: "Can you let me have a penny"?
God's Answer: "Give me a moment to think about it".
I hope you find that "original thought". I could not find it in your excessive Thesis.
Candice
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“There is nothing new under the sun. Even you insistent rambling is vain, and utter nonsense in God's ears.”
Riiiight. There’s nothing new under the sun. Better not challenge ourselves then. That would be a colossal waste of time. After all, the prophet Candice said so. The joke, on the other hand, was an original thought. For whom, I do not know, but it wasn’t you. It does demonstrate one’s naivety in regards to God though. I’ll explain why in a moment. First, I’d like to address the topic of vanity. When the prophets were instructed to go and rebuke a people, do you suppose that some of those, they rebuked, puffed themselves up with pride and accused the prophet of being vain? If I do not speak the truth, prove me wrong. Don’t get your knickers in a bunch over the truth, and then deride me for delivering it. Refute my argument.
People need to rise above the limitations of their programming. I generalize when I say that social environment shapes who we become, because it is TRUE of EVERYONE, including you. God creates us, and the world makes us what we are. I do not care if that FACT wounds your pride. I understood when I cast these pearls out for everyone, some would turn and attack. People like the status quo; they do not like challenges. I didn’t. I hated them. But God is persistent, as exampled by Jonah. Like it or not, I had to step up. This was just the latest challenge for me. I did realize that most people would reject being challenged themselves, and some would swell with so much pride that they would have to try and put me in my place. I faced my challenge anyway. If I’m so wrong about this, why is it that all you could do in response, was insult me with a joke? If you cannot support your position intelligently, resort to insults, just like Don Rickles. That always works.
Here’s another truth you can try to prove wrong. GOD DOES NOT HAVE DAYS. Yes, he did give the authors of the Bible a perspective on time, by saying one day to Him was as a thousand years to us. We, however, are not like the superstitious people of old. We have a better understanding of logic, and physics. Do you believe that God is the Creator of ALL things? Yes? Then you believe that He also created time, correct? Time is the force that GOVERNS linear progression. Everything that has a beginning and an end is SUBJECT to time. GOD had no beginning, and will have no end. The Creator is not subject to the creation, the creation is subject to the Creator. Time does not govern GOD. But be my guest, tell us how your paradigm still holds up.
If I may inquire, what faith do you follow Candice?
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Colossians 3:12
'Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering...'
"Riiiight. There’s nothing new under the sun. Better not challenge ourselves then"
I challenge myself daily. Leaving my home and meeting the world is a challenge. An original thought? That's not so much of a challenge. There is no original thought. LOL
I am not a prophet, never professed to be. The joke was to bring light to the fact that man/woman are vain creatures. Not mine, actually told to me by my dad so, I imagine it is quite the old joke. It was not meant to insult but to bring an air of light-heartedness into what seems to have become a dark topic (in my opinion). I do apologize if you were insulted. It seems you wear a heavy chip on your shoulders Mr. Spencer. Your attitude is rude, and condescending. I don't know if you expect to win souls to Christ speaking to others as you do. I was raised to believe that we should be gentle-hearted, slow to wrath... You seem venomous, and quite angry. I cannot see where anyone is attacking you. But you attack hordes of people with your so-called TRUTH. Truth is relevant here anyway. There is only one ultimate TRUTH, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with "an original thought".
"When the prophets were instructed to go and rebuke a people, do you suppose that some of those, they rebuked, puffed themselves up with pride and accused the prophet of being vain? If I do not speak the truth, prove me wrong. Don’t get your knickers in a bunch over the truth, and then deride me for delivering it. Refute my argument."
I suppose you have puffed yourself up to know, without doubt or question, more than the next person Mr. Spencer. That is vanity. That's what I suppose. What "truth" are you suggesting that it is you are speaking? Prove you wrong? No need. You tend to have a way of pointing the finger at yourself without my assistance. I don't wear kickers, and if I did they would not be in a bunch. Your argument is neither here nor there. Again, it is simply vain. I think the passage directly below this paragraph refutes your argument. Although, I find it an irritant to argue over what is right or wrong in the eyes of God when He, and only He, is the ultimate judge.
Ecclesiastes 1
"All Is Vanity"
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8 All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
"People need to rise above the limitations of their programming. I generalize when I say that social environment shapes who we become, because it is TRUE of EVERYONE, including you."
And YOU, Mr. Spencer. Correct?
"I do not care if that FACT wounds your pride. I understood when I cast these pearls out for everyone, some would turn and attack. People like the status quo; they do not like challenges. I didn't. I hated them. But God is persistent, as exampled by Jonah. Like it or not, I had to step up. This was just the latest challenge for me. I did realize that most people would reject being challenged themselves, and some would swell with so much pride that they would have to try and put me in my place. I faced my challenge anyway. If I’m so wrong about this, why is it that all you could do in response, was insult me with a joke? If you cannot support your position intelligently, resort to insults, just like Don Rickles. That always works."
My pride is not wounded. My pride does not play into you bantering. My pride remains as settled as it was when I posted the original comment to you Mr. Spencer. My pride is lowly, and sits in a seat next to the fall. My pride understands pride. LOL
Why do you make general statements such as; "people like the status quo"? Why not say; "some people"? To generalize will bring you under attack but I suspect you like to debate. God cannot be debated nor will He be mocked. Why do you think people would hate being challenged? What makes you know people as well as you think you do? People are people, Mr. Spencer, with insight and opinions, same as you. People cannot be clumped into a single basket and that's that! You take things far too personally. The joke was not for you alone. It was what this entire thread reminded me of. I have no right to voice what I get from this, only you, correct? If that is the case, why did you make this public" VANITY!
I do know this. You are not a kind man. Not according to what I have read, and yes...I have read the entire thread.
Colossians 3:12; Titus 3:1-7
The believer is to put on "kindness" (Col. 3:12). This refers to a gentle, gracious spirit.
"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you" (Eph. 4:32).
Showing kindness imitates God's character.
Luke 6:35
"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."
Genuine kindness is our response to God's love. It is also our way of showing God's love. God works through people.
Romans 12:14
"Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not."
Kindness is one of the major characteristics of God's people.
Colossians 3:12
"12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering"
You, Sir, have shown few signs of what I would call; 'Christian-like behaviors' in you responses to the people adding to this thread.
James 1:19
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"
I AM A Born Again Christian.
John 3: 3- 8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Candice
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“Colossians 3:12
'Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering...”
And engaging another in verbal conflict seems humble to you? Making jokes at their expense seems merciful and kind? Hypocrite! Doesn’t the very next verse not say:
Colossians 3:13
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
If you use scripture to accuse someone else, make sure it doesn’t convict you also.
“I challenge myself daily. Leaving my home and meeting the world is a challenge. An original thought? That's not so much of a challenge. There is no original thought. LOL”
Well then, I guess we’re still living in caves, without the benefit of direct, or alternating current. We can’t be living in man made structures; that would have taken an original thought at some point. We could not possibly be flying from continent to continent in airplanes, someone would have had to invent something like that. And we all know, because Candice said so, that there is no original thought. A thought may not be original to God, but to the person who had it, and the generation who knew it not, until it was shared by the one God gave it to, it is an original thought.
“The joke was to bring light to the fact that man/woman are vain creatures. Not mine, actually told to me by my dad so, I imagine it is quite the old joke. It was not meant to insult but to bring an air of light-heartedness into what seems to have become a dark topic (in my opinion).”
And you believe that using someone’s name in your joke, is light hearted, and not at all directed at them personally? PLEASE.
“You take things far too personally. The joke was not for you alone.”
And my name was a generalization, directed at everyone? Is anyone naive enough to believe that little attempt at deceit? How about this one:
“My pride is not wounded. My pride does not play into you bantering. My pride remains as settled as it was when I posted the original comment to you Mr. Spencer. My pride is lowly, and sits in a seat next to the fall. My pride understands pride. LOL”
Does it now? What then, keeps bringing you back to vain conflict? If you weren’t trying to prove yourself right, and me wrong, you wouldn’t be here.
“I suppose you have puffed yourself up to know, without doubt or question, more than the next person Mr. Spencer.”
MORE than the next person? No. I just seem to be one of the few who isn’t afraid to admit that the TRUTH applies to me. You say you’re humble, but you’re not. You wouldn’t keep coming back to MY contest with the purpose of setting me straight, if you were. As if you knew what was straight actually was.
“The believer is to put on "kindness" (Col. 3:12). This refers to a gentle, gracious spirit.”
I’m sorry, but I see no graciousness in you. Do as I say, and not as I do, huh?
“And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you" (Eph. 4:32).”
Once again, I see no forgiveness in you, only accusations of vanity. Meanwhile you defend you, and your choices. You, in essence, by what you’ve said, and the scripture you’ve pasted, are telling me to mind my own business. Do you believe that God stopped speaking to us once the bible was complete? The Pharisees resented Christ’s contradictions of their beliefs. He spoke with authority, as though He already knew the truth. They believed Him to be arrogant and vain. People thought the same of His Apostles, and the prophets, because the authority of their words challenged the status-quo. So if you believe that God still speaks through people, is it that you don’t believe He would choose someone like me over someone such as yourself?
You call yourself a “Born Again Christian,” as if saying it means something. You claim to love God, but your faith lies in the world and its comforts, not God. You have faith that your house will keep you safe from the elements. You have faith that your car will get you where you’re going. You have faith that the money you earn will feed you, clothe you, and pay the bills. If you truly had faith in God, you wouldn’t need the world to survive. Jesus told the rich man to sell everything he had and follow Him. In spite of the fact that he prayed, worshiped, kept God’s commandments, and actively sought the word, more often than MOST Christians today, he could not let go of the world. Are you, like those who only talk the talk, trying to TELL me that you can give those comforts up? Can you walk away from your home, your family, your friends, your job, and the security the world provides? If so, do it. Show me that you don’t prefer the status quo. Let anyone my generalization was directed towards show me it doesn’t apply to them.
Ahh, you’re already trying to think of reasons why you don’t have to let go of the world, aren’t you? Are you going to be like all the “Christians” who think it’s enough to state an intention, rather than follow through? I’ve gone through many of the flimsy excuses in my discussion with FindingFaith, but I’d be more than happy to address your “excuses” as well. I think you have enough pride, to do whatever you can to “prove” that your views are, and your paradigm is justified. I’ll keep the light on for you. God bless.
Mark
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Just to quote an upstanding member here:
"Creation is like a pristine pool of crystal clear water. We are like pebbles tossed into that pool. We must always be aware of the ripples caused by our passing, as we skip across the surface in pursuit of goals that lead us to our final resting place."
Mark Spencer
"The one who sits in judgment over his brother, separates himself from the rest of the family."
Mark Spencer
"The success and happiness gained through competitive victory is often won through the failure and sadness of those the victor has defeated. True victory comes when everyone wins."
Mark Spencer
"The legacy we leave behind dwells within the hearts and minds of those whose lives we touch. Make sure your touch doesn't leave a bruise."
Mark Spencer -
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Another thought stolen? That is a shame, isn’t it? Here are a few more quotes.
The humble heart sees it’s reflection in the mirror, while the proud heart only sees what it wants to see, and never looks at it’s own reflection.
Mark Spencer
A humble man understands his iniquities, and reflects on his mistakes, while the proud man sees no blemish in his reflection.
Mark Spencer
God did not stop speaking when the Bible was completed, we stopped listening. The proud believe that God would speak through them if He had a message to deliver. If He chooses someone they don’t approve of, they will not listen.
Mark Spencer
The man, who thinks he does not need to grow, will never reach his full potential.
Mark Spencer
Man is the product of his environment, and society shapes his views, and his choices.
Mark Spencer
Trendy, when used in reference to an individual, is just a politically correct way of calling someone a follower.
Mark Spencer
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HHHHHHHHHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
Well most of what you say is true I'm sorry it's just so funny how much shit it stirred, I hope you're recovering well 
... It's so funny how people bite others down any chance that get 
Goodluck in your contest, you've got some good entries here. You have every right to hold this contest, if people don't like it why do they make a big fuss, I just walk away LOL
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Not making a big fuss, just enjoying some open debate .. I'm not even in the contest .. lol
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Interestingly enough...
Everyone believes what they believe. You've every right to host this contest, but you're delusional if you think that what you believe is something individual. I have met many in my life who are just like you, preaching about not following the herd, and how religion is one big facade of a machine.
If you're expecting originality from the entries in your contest, then you need to show them the respect they deserve as human beings. Respect the fact that other people believe other things, and that attacking those beliefs is not only arrogant, but self-serving.
You wanted attention, and it's what you got. I am giving you more than you are due at this very moment, in fact.
The fact of the matter is, you're part of the human equation whether you like it or not, and no matter how original you think all these "revelations" are, you are still just a very small part of something that is a hell of a lot larger. Everyone has to conform at some point, and even though you've said it's in your past, you still do it. It is impossible to exist as a member of the world today without making some kind of concession, no matter how small.
You remind me of one of those right-wing conspiracy theorists. Well, as original as it might be, the right wing is still attached to the plane.
Humanity is not comprised of one human being, it's comprised of billions of different individual people. That is simply how it is. Originality itself is simply a word used by people who think they are better than other people. Einstein himself was a very humble person. Funny how one of the greatest minds in history is more humble than you, isn't it?
He simply understood the world a little bit better, I suppose, and realized that there would always be someone bigger and better to come.
Honestly, from what you've written and the way you've written it, you strike me as very immature. If you profess to be better than everyone, at least use proper grammar when doing so. That way when I am finished reading your load of arrogant and blatantly hypocritical bull-shit, I can at least rest assured that tax dollars haven't gone to waste on your English courses.
Have a nice day, and good luck with your contest. I hope it meets with your expectations, and that whoever wins feels proud of their work. I hope they feel pride in the WORK, not the fact that you choose it as the best.
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“If you're expecting originality from the entries in your contest, then you need to show them the respect they deserve as human beings. Respect the fact that other people believe other things, and that attacking those beliefs is not only arrogant, but self-serving.”
Respect? You are talking to me about respecting another’s beliefs? YOU?? And then you tell me that attacking someone over their beliefs is not only arrogant, but self-serving! So what does that make you? By the way, where do I attack your beliefs in my statement? I think it was you that attacked mine as being a load of arrogant and blatantly hypocritical bull-shit, wasn’t it? Let’s look, shall we?
“Honestly, from what you've written and the way you've written it, you strike me as very immature. If you profess to be better than everyone, at least use proper grammar when doing so. That way when I am finished reading your load of arrogant and blatantly hypocritical bull-shit, I can at least rest assured that tax dollars haven't gone to waste on your English courses.”
How about this one:
“You remind me of one of those right-wing conspiracy theorists.”
I don’t know about you, but that sounds like an arrogant, self-serving attack to me. Hypocrite.
“The fact of the matter is, you're part of the human equation whether you like it or not,”
I don’t believe I ever said I wasn’t. You got that impression from your own ASSumptions.
“Humanity is not comprised of one human being, it's comprised of billions of different individual people. That is simply how it is. Originality itself is simply a word used by people who think they are better than other people.”
So, let me get this straight. The caveman who discovered fire thought he/she was better than everyone else? Leonardo da Vinci thought he was better than others, because he invented original things for his day? Things like the helicopter, submarine, and airplane? Were Tesla, Edison, and Bell the arrogant, holier than thou, crowd of the late nineteenth, and early twentieth centuries? Was Salk just trying to establish himself as being better than everyone else with his polio vaccine? How about Alexander Fleming and his breakthroughs with penicillin? I think it is more likely that those who have no original ideas, yet still find the time to chastise others for being original, are the arrogant ones. Some claim that nothing is original, and therefore they do not have to make the effort. Others say that everyone is already original, and so, once again, they need make no effort.
“Einstein himself was a very humble person. Funny how one of the greatest minds in history is more humble than you, isn't it?”
What, did you channel him to make that discovery? Some say the humility you speak of was actually Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. How do you KNOW he was humble? Were you there? Whether he was or not, makes no difference, only arrogance would cause someone to state it as if it were fact. The only purpose this accusation serves is to illustrate the lack of humility of the one who made it. You came here, to my contest, accusing me of being a conspiracy nut, attacking my character, and my grammar. That’s it? Are personal attacks all you can bring to the table?? Is that your argument? Well, for lack of an original thought, I guess it will have to do.
Mark
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I skimmed...
I looked through your reply, and honestly, I was disappointed. I was hoping it would be an original thought, but it was a bunch of the same ambiguity that you have replied to everyone with.
You like to use capitol letters for emphasis don't you? Well, it hurts my eyes, just stop, it makes you seem childish.
As to what I was saying about the ambiguity:
Each time someone makes a point to you, you refute it, not with solid proof, but with a "How did you know? Were you there? Actually, this is what [I think] happened."
So, five out of five for annoyance, but your style is lacking, and I think your delivery could use some work as well.
Take it easy.
I hope life brings you whatever it is you're looking for. -
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“I looked through your reply, and honestly, I was disappointed. I was hoping it would be an original thought, but it was a bunch of the same ambiguity that you have replied to everyone with.
You like to use capitol letters for emphasis don't you? Well, it hurts my eyes, just stop, it makes you seem childish.”
I must say that I completely understand being disappointed in a response. I also understand why those who THINK (whoops, there are those darn capitals again) they have great intellect resort to personal attacks, rather than addressing the topic.
“So, five out of five for annoyance, but your style is lacking, and I think your delivery could use some work as well.”
THEY CAN’T WIN. They avoid addressing any opposing point, in favor of new and improved self-serving insults. Run along child. Do not bother me again with your arrogance, or you insults. It only shows that you haven’t got a clue how to engage me in honest debate.
Mark
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It is not about what ap nor you thinks of me. No opinion of you nor them matters. It is only God that can judge me. If all you are concerned with is winning, tell everyone you did for all I care. My concern is not winning, but stating the truth.
For your supposed concern with stating the facts correctly, why would you write a poem about reincarnation or life being hell? If you've read the bible you know neither of those are true.
"You can love God without holding on to worldly things! You can love thy neighbor without holding on to worldly things! You can even honor you father and mother without holding on to worldly things. How? By dedicating ALL of your time doing God’s work, just like the prophets, and the apostles did, just like Jesus did. By doing so, you share God’s message with your neighbors, wherever you go. You honor you father and mother by being the Godly child you could be. And you show the Lord, thy God that you love Him more than you love the world."
I do love God without holding on to worldly things. So it is your opinion that because I choose to be married and have children that I cannot love God? Was it not God who said the marriage bed is not defiled. Also to be fruitful and multiply? I've given up plenty already that you have no idea of. If God told me today to walk away from my marriage I would do that as well. However, God says to obey my husband and to stay married. Your comments with this confuse me so.
"You know, this seems to agree with my position more than it supports yours. “Lay NOT up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.” What this is saying, is that we need not worry if we have food, water, or clothing. If we trust God instead of the world, these things will be provided. He provides for the grass, and the lilies in the field, would he not do the same for you, oh ye of little faith? And how about that “Ye cannot serve God and mammon” part? I don’t know which I like better, that, or the “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” part. Your treasure seems to be here, with your family. You know, God really does understand. But when you pretend that He comes first, when He doesn’t, that is a problem."
Do you know what the real problem is? It is you judging me and others when it's not your job. It is when you spend more time trying to convince me of my sins rather than getting rid of your own. Did Jesus not say to get rid of the mote in your own eye before confronting your brother with the one in his? It is when you are too scared to admit the things about yourself that you sit and debate the issues of others. How do you know where my treasures are stored? You been peekin in my windows? It's not about what treasures you have here. It is about making sure that you devote each day to God. To helping and serving others. To the things that will last forever. These words we are typing back and forth will pass away and many other things we do each day. God's will not. You can have both God and money, just not serve both. Hard, but doable. Now though, I have only God. I have enough faith to know that even though our rent is three weeks late, our God will provide not a moment too late. I've got faith that this month, just like the several past, when we run low on food our God will provide from many sources. I've got enough faith to tithe on the little we get to show God it's not about the money, but what he has done for us. I've got enough faith to know I am not perfect which is why I need the blood of Jesus. Enough faith in the grace of God to know I am not the person I should be yet, but I am also no where near the person I was. Enough faith to know that the work he has begun in me he will complete.
""15": Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
"16": For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
I would pay very close attention to that pride of life part, if I were you. It is pride that keeps you coming back. It is pride that motivates you to try and justify your love of your family over your love of God."
I do not love this world. I hate the way this world works. Hated it even before I knew God. I do not love my family more than God. Would never try to justify that to you nor anyone else. You put words in my mouth. Not nice Mark. It is not pride that keeps me coming, it is the truth that keeps me coming. I have nothing to hide from you or God. God sees it all anyway. What are you hiding behind this facade of knowledge Mark? I must wonder.
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"I noticed that you cut and pasted quite a bit of scripture in this latest attempt at keeping the status quo. Therefore, I find it odd that you would just tell me about these “several places” that I could look this up, rather than cutting and pasting that bit of scripture also. Could it be that you looked, but could not find?
I was merely tired...here are your scriptures...
Proverbs 10:3
A slack hand causes poverty,
but the hand of the diligent makes rich.
The blessing of the Lord makes rich,
and he adds no sorrow with it.
—Proverbs 10:22
Wealth gained hastily will dwindle,
but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.
—Proverbs 13:11
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children,
but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.
—Proverbs 13:22
give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will men give into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”
—Luke 6:38
the Lord takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servant" (Psalm 35:27).
Some of God's people, His generals of faith, were wealthy men, such as Abraham (Genesis 13:2)and Solomon (II Chronicles 1:12). In fact, God asked Solomon what he wanted, and Solomon told Him wisdom. God not only gave him wisdom but riches as well. If God sees money as evil, why would God give Solomon riches? Or Abraham? Or Job?
The Lord teaches us to profit (Isaiah 48:17).
Why would God want us to have money? Simple. So that we could be a blessing to others (Genesis 12:2).
When Jesus says to you 'I was hungry and you did not feed me...etc...how bad will you feel? We are told to give to the poor. How can anyone give to the poor if the world were all poor?
If our minds are sufficiently renewed then it is definitely in God's interest to prosper us in all things, including material things. There is a purpose! However, many times we flatter ourselves that we have God's perspective on things when we really lack it. If you are faithful with little He will trust you with much because to whom much is given much is required.
Our main concern should be spiritual prosperity. Bottom line. I was trying to make a point. I am not rich and actually don't wish I was. I would give up anything to please God, and whether you believe it or not...God knows my heart.
Mark, it does not matter how much you serve God if your heart is not in it. I know you think you've learned so much. I know that to you it all conforms a certain way. The truth is that as long as you are doing the will of God, and keeping him first the rest does not matter. I could lose my family today and still have God. I am already poor, but even if we lost the little we have I would still trust God. I do walk in faith. I could not live the life I live if I didn't without being depressed. I refuse to not rejoice in a day the Lord has made.
The point is we can be rich and still serve God as long as our heart truly seeks him. For God wieghs the heart of the matter. We can spend our life doing God's will and still go to Hell. In Luke Jesus talks of judgement day. He said there will be those that think they are going to Heaven and he will tell them to depart from him, he never knew them. If our obediance to God is only because we know we have to it won't matter. If we are resentful of the obediance it won't matter how obediant we are. For true obediance is done with a true heart.
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“It is not about what ap nor you thinks of me. No opinion of you nor them matters. It is only God that can judge me.”
Do tell. No opinion matters? Then why do you keep coming back? If you really weren’t concerned about opinion, you never would have bothered with this. That is the TRUTH.
“If all you are concerned with is winning, tell everyone you did for all I care. My concern is not winning, but stating the truth.”
Your concern is for stating YOUR truth. THE truth is not your concern. As for winning, this is my contest, I HAVE to be here. It is you that keeps coming back trying to prove a point that does not exist.
“However, God says to obey my husband and to stay married. Your comments with this confuse me so.”
Scripture also says that a man will cleave to his wife, yet Paul left his wife and family. Grasp at all the straws you like, it will not change the truth.
“It is when you are too scared to admit the things about yourself that you sit and debate the issues of others.”
I don’t debate the issues of others, I state the truth. It is the truth that challenges others to debate me.
“I do love God without holding on to worldly things.”
How nice that you don’t have to prove that. You can just say it, and make it so.
“Do you know what the real problem is? It is you judging me and others when it's not your job. It is when you spend more time trying to convince me of my sins rather than getting rid of your own.”
As I recall, I stated a simple truth in my contest description; one we are ALL guilty of. If you felt judged by that, perhaps you should look in a mirror for the source of that judgment. The truth will set you free, but we tend to reject the truth in favor of our own self serving delusions. In this way, the truth hurts, long before it has the opportunity to set us free. As the Pharisees, and the rich man discovered, the truth is not always what we WANT it to be.
Do you know why there are no modern day prophets? Because most people, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and non believers alike, have too much pride to allow any other human being to tell them they’re wrong. If Jesus Himself told you what I have, you would continue to argue. I doubt He would appear in all His glory, as that would influence your choice. He would, most likely, appear as an ordinary person, give you the truth, and see what you did with it. If I do not speak the truth, and you are correct, the spirit will cause you to refute everything I say, without effort. If you, on the other hand, spoke the truth, I would not be able to continuously refute you, as I have. The truth is rarely EVER convenient.
“Did Jesus not say to get rid of the mote in your own eye before confronting your brother with the one in his?”
Yes He did. How do you know that hasn’t been done? Just because you want the plank to be in my eye, that doesn’t mean it’s still there. God warned that if your brother sins, and you know it, but say nothing, his sin will be upon you. If everyone only took care of their own issues, neither prophets, nor apostles would have existed. There would be no Christianity, and the Bible would never have been written. It is society that trains us not to say things that might offend others. One day, society will complete our training, and when it does, we will have to keep all of our thoughts, and opinions to ourselves.
“I do not love this world. I hate the way this world works. Hated it even before I knew God. I do not love my family more than God. Would never try to justify that to you nor anyone else.”
Anybody can talk the talk, few, however, can walk the walk. All anybody gets from you, regarding how much you LOVE God, is talk. And yet, your response to the TRUTH that Jesus shared, was exactly the same as the rich man.
“The Lord teaches us to profit (Isaiah 48:17). “
Not in the world, He wants us to profit in the spirit!
Why would God want us to have money? Simple. So that we could be a blessing to others (Genesis 12:2). “
Genesis 12
2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Of course! He wasn’t talking about Isaac and his descendants, who would become the nation of Israel. He was talking about money!
“I was merely tired...here are your scriptures...”
“Proverbs 10:3
A slack hand causes poverty,
but the hand of the diligent makes rich.”
Actually it was Proverbs 10:4. Now, lets look at the actual context, shall we?
2: Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
3: The LORD will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.
4: He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
5: He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.
So, you really think this is talking about money huh? What it IS saying is that God will never allow the righteous to starve. It is saying that the righteous will be delivered from death. It is saying that a slack hand, or lazy soul, will eventually lose everything, while the diligent will prosper, and create treasures in HEAVEN. Of course, if one seeks worldly profit, they are not righteous.
“The blessing of the Lord makes rich,
and he adds no sorrow with it.
—Proverbs 10:22”
Still trying to justify the want of worldly gain?
Proverbs 10
21: The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.
22: The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
23: It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.
And you think the “rich” in this Proverb means money? Silly me for thinking the treasure it was talking about was wisdom. Where would I get such a silly idea as that?
“Wealth gained hastily will dwindle,
but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.
—Proverbs 13:11”
Another INCORRECT assumption.
Proverbs 13:
6: Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
7: There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
8: The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke.
9: The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
10: Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
11: Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.
12: Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
“There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing.” You didn’t read this part? What about: “The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke.” Do you really believe this proverb is talking about worldly wealth? EVERYTHING in this world will fade. Anything you “own” of it will also fade. God’s wealth and prosperity will last forever.
I would pay very close attention to that “Only by pride cometh contention” part. As I said, this is my contest, I have to be here. It is you that keeps coming back to contend with me, my proud friend.
“A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children,
but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.
—Proverbs 13:22 “
Here we go again.
Proverbs 13:
18: Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.
19: The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.
20: He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
21: Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.
22: A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
23: Much food is in the tillage of the poor: but there is that is destroyed for want of judgment.
24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
25: The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.
You got money out of the inheritance part of this??? That whole part about heeding rebuke, and not holding back when it must be given, slipped past your notice huh? Wisdom and humility have nothing to do with it, right? That part about being destroyed for lack of judgment has no baring either, correct? I must have been blind not to notice that the inheritance was monetary, rather than spiritual.
“give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will men give into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.
—Luke 6:38”
God always rewards sacrifice. However, if someone gives to someone in need, expecting to be rewarded, they will receive nothing. Do you know what else Luke 6 says?
20: And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21: Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22: Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23: Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24: But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25: Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26: Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Do you still think this chapter says it’s good to peruse wealth?
“the Lord takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servant" (Psalm 35:27).”
Wow, you are reaching, aren’t you? Let’s look at the actual scripture.
24: Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me.
25: Let them not say in their hearts, Ah, so would we have it: let them not say, We have swallowed him up.
26: Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishonour that magnify themselves against me.
27: Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
28: And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long.
David is asking God for his blessing. He is also asking for protection against his enemies. The scripture you used out of context, is a blessing for those who favor, and support David’s cause, and one for the Lord, that He be magnified over His pleasure in David’s prosperity. Now, what do you suppose that prosperity might be? Silver, gold, and precious gems? Do you think it might be the prosperity of the spirit? Let’s see, earthly prosperity, or spiritual prosperity? That’s a tough one.
“Some of God's people, His generals of faith, were wealthy men, such as Abraham (Genesis 13:2)and Solomon (II Chronicles 1:12). In fact, God asked Solomon what he wanted, and Solomon told Him wisdom. God not only gave him wisdom but riches as well. If God sees money as evil, why would God give Solomon riches? Or Abraham? Or Job?”
Because that was not the wealth they asked for. Abraham was given wealth because he put God above all other things. He was even willing to give up his only son, at God’s request. Nothing of this world was held above God. Solomon asked for wisdom, not earthly wealth. God rewarded him with a kingdom, and the worldly treasures therein. In the end, however, Solomon coveted material things (foreign wives), and the fact that he did not share the wisdom given to him by God, with his heir, caused his kingdom to be split in two. Generations suffered for that sin. Job lost all of his worldly possessions, and immediately thought it would have been better that he were never born. It wasn’t until he accepted the truth, that God does what He does, and he doesn’t need a reason, that his suffering came to an end. Whether we approve of His actions or not, it makes no difference. When Job understood this, and accepted his place, his wealth was returned to him. If Job had not shared the spiritual wealth he gained from this lesson, it is likely that he would have lost everything again.
“For your supposed concern with stating the facts correctly, why would you write a poem about reincarnation or life being hell? If you've read the bible you know neither of those are true.”
The bible describes hell as separation from God.
Isaiah, chapter 59
"2": But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
What is more separating than the flesh? The bible also provides the evidence for reincarnation.
Matthew 17:
"9": And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
"10": And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
"11": And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
"12": But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
"13": Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
No mater how hard you try to prove your case, one undeniable truth will always stand in your way. YOU HAVE NO CASE.
Mark
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I find this whole debate or argueing very sad.
God is Love .
plain and simple and rubuking harshly is not love.
Calling people morons is just wrong.
No one is anyones jugde here on AP.
I think if people want to tell someone about God , it wouldnt be like this, It doesnt matter who you are ,What you cloths you have, peicing tattoo's or business suits or, where you been.
I am writing this to everyone not anybody on this debate .
God does love you and cares.
This is not something He would be pleased with.
Kinda the old saying
Cant we all just get along ..nope not an original though but hope it helps someone .
Love to all
~Lisa~
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“God is Love .
plain and simple and rubuking harshly is not love.”
How arrogant we are to THINK we can define God with a word. God is so much more than our LITTLE minds can comprehend. If you are capable of understanding something, be assured it is not God.
“Calling people morons is just wrong.”
I believe the statement went like this: “Is a clock maker part of the clock? Is a painter part of the painting? Unless you are a complete moron, your answer should be no.” You can paint your image into a painting, but you cannot paint your soul, or your essence into it. To think otherwise is either naïve, obstinate, or foolish. Since no one maintained that you could paint your soul into a painting, no one was called anything.
“No one is anyones jugde here on AP.”
It seems to me that you did quite a bit of judging on AP yourself. On all those “picture prompt” contests you held. A poem is a thought, put down on paper by the author. Most often, that thought follows the author’s particular philosophy. Who are you to judge one thought as more deserving of gold than another? You have made the JUDGMENT that one thought is more appealing to you than another. So your statement is incorrect.
“God does love you and cares.
This is not something He would be pleased with.”
Why do people always assume they know what God would, or would not be “pleased” with? And why do they always say He is pleased with the things the person making the judgment is pleased with? Why do they always say He is displeased with things the person making the judgment is displeased with?
“I think if people want to tell someone about God , it wouldnt be like this, It doesnt matter who you are ,What you cloths you have, peicing tattoo's or business suits or, where you been.”
Why do they THINK God’s message should always be supportive, that the Lord would NEVER rebuke something they are guilty of themselves? One answer is: they THINK they’re right in what they do. Another answer explains that pride will not allow them to consider that their life paradigm could be wrong. In the days of the prophets, God’s servants were hunted, tortured, and executed for telling people they were wrong. The Apostles were also tortured and executed for telling people they were wrong. JESUS was crucified for telling people, like the Pharisees and Sadducees, that they…were…wrong. But then, if it doesn’t follow a proud person’s way of thinking, scripture must be wrong. Sadly, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the Bible are correct, and incorrect. God’s servants HAVE spoken to entire cities, rebuking them, and telling them they were wrong. They didn’t like it either. But that did not make the message any less true. God bless.
Mark
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You are so right Mark To define God with a word was wrong because God is (THE WORD)
I will leave you with I know nothing but Jesus and Him Crucified.
My daughter also told me to tell you, in her exact word; "God says not to judge people, and you my friend, act like you know so much about God and everyone else knows nothing. Are you God? No, don't think so."
Amber Parks I am 15 years old.
Have a great contest Mark ,
God Bless you in all you do .
~Lisa~
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It is quite simple to TELL someone that they are wrong. It is altogether different to SHOW them. So rather than telling me that I am wrong, show me that doing what the prophets, Apostles, and Jesus Himself did, is wrong.
Mark
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Thank you for the bronze. Nothing like a good clock cleaning. lol.
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