I have, I feel it must be stated, nothing against religion, organised or otherwise. I feel that there are many paths to the truth, and if your way happens to lie along the line of one of the organised religions then I wish you well. Likewise if it doesn't.
However, I've diverged from that line. And I'm getting pretty annoyed, in my own quiet way, at the number of times a poem about spirituality -- which is not the same as religion -- results in many comments that try to convert me to Christianity.
I do not want to be told that "Jesus is the truth", that "Jesus loves me " or that a clear path to morality and God can be found in the Bible. I have been Christian for many years, and I understand all these statements: BUT THEY ARE FACETS OF BELIEF. They are not absolute truth. Take away the belief and they mean nothing. And I do not believe.
I live in the UK, and in this country people tend to be quiet about religion. They accept it as a fact of life, but there is very little active conversion between the faiths. People who are vocal about their relgion or unusually devout are viewed as odd, and cause embarrassment and uneasiness for those people on the receiving end. Anyone yelling 'Jesus saves!' in a public area would find the entire population trying to avoid their eyes. I say this in order to highlight the sense of culture clash (almost to the point of exclusivity) I feel when American Christians, who seem to be far more vocal than their British cousins, try to convert me.
I believe that I have the right to explore my own spiritual development through poetry. As do all the Christians here. But even when, in a recent poem written for a contest, I clearly described my path from Christian to non-Christian, making clear my knowledge of the religion, my reasons for rejecting it and my lack of any intention to return to it, I STILL get many responses asking if I will "accept Jesus" and so learn the truth.
No! If I choose to return to Christianity in any form, it will not be because of a comment you put on my poem! It will be the result of my spiritual development and many hours of thinking, followed by a conscious decision to return to my former faith.
I do not accept that the Bible is true. Neither do I accept that 'the Bible says so' is an acceptable excuse for hatred and discrimination. Most of all, I refuse to accept a religion simply because they can think up the most imaginative and horrible punishments if I don't!
Please, feel free to comment on my poems. I welcome your insight into my spiritual dilemmas, and into the form and language of my poetry. I am glad to recieve feedback on my views and my poems. I am also interested in other people's spiritual journeys. I am NOT interested in parrot-repetition of established dogma; neither am I interested in people attempting to convert me to their religion. Tell me about it: yes. Convert me? No. Spiritual choices are highly personal, and should be well-informed and unique.
"Spiritual" does not mean "religious", even if "religious" is "sprirtual". And neither of them are synonymous with "Christian".I'm not hate-mongering. At least, I don't intend to. But I'm expressing what I feel is a valid point. It is possible to live a fulfilling, moral and generally good life without being Christian, and I fell that this would be a happier site if more people could accept this.
If you think you will read a slight on your faith into this column, please *do not read it*.
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It's never happened to me on AP, but my best friend has tried on numerous occasions with the whole 'You're going to go to hell!' thing that does get quite annoying. I like what you have written here, especially the last line
Moon
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Jobob...I agree with everything you have written here! I feel so imposed upon and disregarded when people try to push religion on me...as if I am not an intelligent, free-thinking and analytical individual. Well done! You get my applause!
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Amen, Jobob!
Jobob, All I can say is. . . Amen! -
OK people you need to just take like half a second of you day to realize that she has her own beliefs as to wheater or not you like them or not that is our own choice i have a suggestion to all of you who posted on here and decided to try and once again do what she said in this column are trying to push off somethin on her that she happens to not belive if any of you truely thing that she is a good poet look between the lines this is very good and she is expressing herself so take a brutal hint and lay off......and on a more personal note i love this column and i hope you keep up the great job ~Renee~
Edited on Dec 04, 10:04 because 'i am not going to let spelling errors mess it up'. -
Point Taken
I understand most of your viewpoints... or at least I think I do. But I see a different view of it than you may also. I am not one to put "Jesus can save you" on most peoples poems, but I can see why some comments would be made in that light. You have to understand that a devout Christian would be thinking of where you would be going. That is a question that would weigh down their hearts. Having that said, I myself am one of those people that would tell you about my spiritual journey, and focus on the things in my life and others lives to show someone a path rather than just use a cliched message. So basically I'm saying I'm neutral to the people that would make a cliched comment. I don't see it as good or bad. It is ignorance with a good cause behind it. And no, I'm not one of those "devout" christians, just a mediocre one. -
i happen to agree with you, but i doubt that posting this will do anything much to solve your situation
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Thanks for posting here, but it was a for Jobob-I got it on the feautured list because(to me) it's an important message. But eitehr way, It was nice of you to post.
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Can't say I read all the comments, so I don't know what's going on, but I liked the article. Valid points, all of them. Of course, I'm biased, not being religious myself, but I thought the were the epitome of tolerance. Nicely done.
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Ok... I saw this in the Featured list thinking it was something else... But I was wrong... So for you not to loose any points that is why I am typing what I am... I am not going to say anything against this collum or even again... My views are staying in my mouth... It is all better that way..
Jenn
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Opened a can of worms huh? You are entitled to feel and believe/not believe anything you desire. If you have been a Christian that believed the Bible and what it taught at any point you should know that those who do believe feel compelled to try and help you. Wihout having read all the comments to all your works I can't and won't comment on what they say. I can say I have a little tip for what I do if I don't agree with a comment. I don't spend any time on it. I just move on. Luckily I haven't been bombed with many comments I didn't agree with so maybe it is just easier for me, but when you post in a public forum you are bound to get some feedback you would rather not receive. I simply wish you well and hope the peace you are happy with never fades.
Edited on Dec 03, 7:44 p.m. because ''. -
I've gotten this too, particularly from older females, and it's rather annoying. And on dark personal depressed poetry they all seem to think what i want to hear is that I need to find GOd and follow the Bible.....umm no. Thats my own choice, and like you I'm tired of people trying to force their beliefs on me. It doesn't help I've been dealing with this kind fo thing for years. (My mom is Bahai and wishes me and my sister both were, sister is Wiccan and think si should be, Dad is atheist and thinks everyone should be, and almost all my friends who are christian have taken me to church with them at least once). The friernds i dont mind, cuz i go for fun, i enjoy a lot of the ppl who they go to church with and they dont try and force me to change,b ut still, there is only so much of this kind of thing one can take. And I DONT need it on here, where I come to get away and vent and express MYSELF, i dont mind other people expressing themselves but dont try and chenge my beliefs, you wont be able to you, i dont even know you so dont try and influence me and think itll mean anything.
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Very true
Geez Jobob, after reading through all of the above comments I almost don't want to comment on this column in case I say something 'questionable' or 'incorrect' and get told off, or whatever, lol.
Well I agree with what you're saying, there's no doubt about that.
Personally, I know very little about religion (and I'm really not interested in it at all) Call me ignorant, but it's just something that's at the very bottom of my list of priorities.
I'm Church of England because of my parents but we do not attend church or anything along those lines. Religion is not a part of my life at all; in my personal opinion, I just don't believe, and probably nobody is going to make me change my ways.
I know what you mean about the 'conversion comments' - I don't know from first-hand experiences but some of the poets I read on AP have had similar comments and they're quite irritating (and I'm not even the author!) I don't go around commenting on people's poems about heavy metal and try to convert them to listening to cheesy pop, nor do I preach to people that they should wear the colour pink just because it's what I like to wear, lol. Everyone is unique and should able to make their own decisions, without a pushy influence from others.
I think that these individuals leaving comments should just write a column as you have, telling people why they should convert - that way they are doing it in a non-annoying way and giving people the opportunity whether to read it or not.
An excellent piece and I totally agree with everything you said.
Edited on Aug 03, 12:11 because ''. -
In short, the point I was trying to make in all my comments is a double standard I often notice. I have been on both sides of the fence, and there are judgmental Christians as well as judgmental non-Christians. However, I find that I am judged MUCH more harshly now that I’m a Christian than when I was not. Sharing my beliefs and ideas was never a second thought before I was a Christian, but now, I often bite my tongue (believe it or not) because I know what probably will result.
There have been many times that I’ve been bashed for merely sharing my own beliefs – as an identity of myself. Whether through poetry, or conversation, or otherwise. I was not trying to “witness” at the time, just share some information about my self and what I believe – but I’ve been called some of the nastiest names by people who don’t share my beliefs. Even in conversations where others have freely shared their non-beliefs and reasons for……………..but when I offer a differing point of view, and my reasons for, my own character is attacked and names are called.
That is a double standard that I come up against quite often, and it is just as wrong as pushy Christians who try to convert you to the point of annoyance.
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I’m glad you’re a debater too, Jobob. It makes it easier to understand each other. Quite often, people want to say what they want to say, but they don’t want to hear anyone else, and that’s just no fun!
I’m going to try to explain this clearly, because sometimes I have trouble getting my true point across. Especially when writing/typing.
First – I could tell you were trying to be as gracious as you could in writing your column. My comments about your “intolerance” were directed in context with others’ comments. They were comparable to what they find intolerant when concerning many Christians, but what would be tolerant when spoken by someone else.
I still don’t think I’m being clear: I (personally) don’t think your article was intolerant in itself, though I did have a couple of points to make about it – but none dealing with intolerance. BUT, when using another’s concept of intolerance when it comes to some Christians, it follows that you, too, would have to be described as intolerant. (not by MY definition, but by OTHERS’ – when taking their “intolerance” claims against Christians to the logical end).
For example: If I said, “I believe that Jesus is the way , the truth, and the life and there’s no other way to the Father except through him, and I don’t want to hear you tell me that Jesus is not true” -- Now, I’m NOT pushing my beliefs, I’m merely STATING my beliefs – but I’m adding an addendum saying that I want to state my own belief but I don’t want to hear yours. PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER THAT INTOLERANT.
BUT, consider this: You said, in summation: “I don’t believe in the Bible, I don’t believe that Jesus is the only way, and I don’t want to hear you tell me that he is life and he can save me” -- Now, this comment is like the one above, only reversed………………………..people would usually NOT consider that intolerant.
I’m just trying to point out the double standards, but I don’t personally think that you’re column was intolerant. I just think that if I wrote the same type of article from the Christian perspective, it would be considered intolerant and I would be bashed promptly for my abuse.
Let me add that I understand what you’re saying about some Christians who are very pushy and quite annoying. I really don’t like being grouped with those types of Christians, but it happens often. YOU didn’t do that, but some of the comments DID group all Christians according to a few very vocal ones, and that’s a shame. Furthermore, I think it’s very tacky and immature to try to “convert” someone on an internet site, while commenting on a poem, so I’m in total agreement on that point as well.
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I think if you re-read the column, Amber, you'll see that in fact it is the height of tolerance. The only thing I'm intolerant of are closed-minded Christians who can't accept any other route to truth, goodness and spirituality than their own, and thus continue to give me the hard sell. If you read closely you'll see that *that's* what I'm criticising - the deed, not the motivation.
In several comments now you've accused me of intolerance and it's my belief that you're unfairly putting words into my mouth.
Although I'm a debater at heart too, and I'm quite enjoying this debate...
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Peaseeker,
I am sorry that you feel attacked. I certainly didn't mean to attack you in any way, shape or form. I was expressing my reaction to what you said, not who you are -- and I think that is in my right to do.
I don't have a problem with tolerance. As a matter of fact, I'm a tolerant person myself -- perhaps moreso than most. I just notice that there are often double standards when it comes to tolerance.
You can "tolerate" Jobob ranting that she does not want to hear that Jesus is the Truth......etc etc, but can you tolerate it someone were to say that they honestly think that Jesus is the truth and they don't want to hear people tell them Jesus is a lie? Tolerance works both ways.
I think you have every right to express your beliefs, as does everyone else...........guess what -- including me!
Again, I AM sorry that I came off in a way that I totally didn't mean to. I'm just a debater at heart -- if you haven't already noticed.
QUESTION: Do you think it's tolerant for someone to dismiss your heartfelt poetry for the mere fact that it's Christian? I know it can't feel too great to have that happen to you. -
AmberDawn, I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. Intolerance is always upsetting, no matter who does it, I said so.
You don't know me or what I believe beyond what I have written on this page. My religion is very firm and I have expressed it in some of my works on this site. My work has been dismissed as "Christian crap" as have so many other faithful poems.
Your heart is in the right place, but you are a bit hasty. I think it is my place to express what I believe, and God's to convert unbelievers. Please don't attack people who are expressing tolerance.
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NOTE: Please accept my apologies for addressing Jobob as a male, in the various uses of personal pronouns when referring to her.
It is clear by your comments that she is female, but her name (Jobo
obviously threw me off, and for making those assumptions, I am sorry!
I hope you all can forgive my obvious and gross oversight, especially Jobob herself!
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Thanks for your comments, AmberDawn.
Of course my statement is not absolutely true. I'm a scientist by trade, and I know exactly how hard it is to find real truth. I don't really believe in it anymore - just a string of approximations that get closer and closer (if we're doing everything right).
I don't think anything I believe is absolute truth. And therefore I object to people coming up to me and trying to peddle "absolute truth" as they call it. That's the heart of my column in a nutshell.
It's only targeted at Christians specifically because in the time that I've been on AP I've had 0 attempted conversions from any religion other than Christianity. -
Ok, now I will FINALLY comment on your "article" Jobob. Sorry it's taken so long:
I appreciate the fact that you wrote this in the nicest way you possibly could, while getting your point across. Thank you for that.
“They are not absolute truth” – is this statement ABSOLUTELY TRUE? Hmm? Does this statement rely of my BELIEF in it to be true? What if I don’t believe in this statement? That makes in untrue FOR ME right?
You see, some people, believe in absolute truth. Some people believe in relative truth – but in order to say something is not absolutely true – you have to be making a TRUTH statement in itself. ANY WAY…….
There is NO EXCUSE for hatred & discrimination. Some confuse the belief that a certain action is “wrong” as hatred – but all of us have made those kinds of moral judgements at one time or another. The fact is – some things are just wrong – whether it’s cruelty to animals, or a mother killing her innocent children for insurance money, or the sexual abuse of a child – we all agree that is wrong right?
Some religious folk, Christian or otherwise, take things beyond acceptable and Biblical. Some religious folk are definitely judgmental and cruel about it – but this should not reflect Christianity nor should it reflect on all Christians.
“Spiritual choices are highly personal, and should be well-informed and unique” I agree with this statement. A spiritual decision should never be made without a plausible REASON for making the decision – but this statement, in itself, could be construed as judging HOW a person should go about making a decision. Christians have to be VERY careful when using the word “should”.
“ “Spiritual” does not mean “religious”, even if “religious” is “spiritual”. And neither of them ear synonymous with “Christian”.
I AGREE!
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ILTL4eva7:
"That doesn't give you the right to put her down for it"
But, what about Jobob putting people down for saying what their "hearts desired"? Is this a double standard?
"I just don't like it when people bash on other for expressing their own beliefs."
Really? Unless the someone who's bashing others for expressing thier beliefs shares YOUR beliefs right?
I'm just a little confused. Jobob is clearly bashing others for expressing their beliefs to him, yet you don't seem to have a problem with that. It seems to be ok for Jobob to bash someone's expression of their beliefs, but not ok for others to bash his.
I think it's wrong all around. Can't we all express our ideas and beliefs without getting upset because we don't believe the same? -
Inscrutable:
Wow! I'm sorry you've been judged wrongly! I know a few Christian w/tats -- you were unfairly judged.
Please blame the individuals, not ALL Christians, because to blame all Christians for the fault of a few would be equally wrong.
I don't blame all atheists for the ones who have treated me cruelly with no reason, so I would like the same respect in return.
I speak with people about my beliefs, but only when THEY express an interest in the discussion or THEY tell me about their beliefs -- of which both times I think it's fair.
I don't try to force anyone to belive as I do, nor do I judge someone who chooses to believe differently. The decision to believe a certain way is as a personal one. I just ask for the same respect you're asking for -- if you can share your beliefs, can I not share mine without being considered judgemental?
I have shared my beliefs with many, and somehow managed to do it in a way that they don't feel "judged" and they have respected my views. However, I run into the occasional person who judges me while calling me "judgemental" or the occasional stranger (as on this site) who lumps me in a group with Christians who are less than desirable -- this is also judgemental.
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Peaseeker:
"The intolerance and disrespect of others shown by many people here and in the wider world is also upsetting..." -- ALWAYS upsetting to you, or only if a Christian is being what you feel is intolerant? What about kyew's intolerant comment? What about Jobob's intolerance in all people expressing their beliefs though he has certainly expressed his?
THE GOLDEN RULE: "Do unto others......" (we all know the rest) If a Christian truly believes that un-belief leads to eternal punishment, wouldn't sharing the remedy to this punishment be more loving than letting someone experience HELL?
What if you had a terminal illness, but I knew of a cure -- would it be more loving to tell you about the cure or to stay quiet for fear that you might think I'm "judging" your condition?
I understand there are people out there that are Christians and they're very judgemental -- but not all are. And sharing their own beliefs does not make them judgemental. Not to mention, there are plenty of people are there who have no religious affiliation or beliefs at all -- yet they can be very judgemental as well -- often towards those who hold to a religious belief. -
Ok, since I have some comments on the comments as well as a comment on this "article" -- I think I'll comment on comments first -- then I'll comment on Jobob's write. Look for your name.............
kyew: "they all believe the only their religion is worth merit......." -- this is a somewhat bigoted statement. You're supposing to know what ALL Christians believe. I, for one, believe that alot of other religions are worth "merit", but I also believe in truth.
"(Christians) have severe disagreements with other denominations of the same religion." -- Although different denominations may have differences, none of them are severe and non of them are based on doctrines considered to be central to salvation. All Christian denominations belive in the same "essential" and/or "basic" doctrines -- differences are on minute issues -- not issues meant to divide over.
"preaching that god is love and only jesus can save you"
"god doesn't exist and jesus is dead. save yourself."
Those two comments (when read in context) contradict eachother. You don't like Christians to "preach their beliefs" but then you preach your own beliefs in this very comment...."god doesn't exist........" is typed here as a truth claim.
"go leave some asskissing comments on someone poetry" if directed to "pushy" Christian -- ok...........but this seems (when put in context with entire comment) that this is directed to ALL Christians -- in which case, that was just plain mean and judgemental and presumptuous. -
oops... forgot to actually put my comment as a reply to Joshuacrisel, so yes, I'm posting that part again. Sorry, LOL...
In reply to Joshuacrisel: Jobob can say whatever her heart desires. So can you. That doesn't give you the right to put her down for it. Also, chances are, this column was in no way directed specifically at you, and no one said you had to read it... alright, done with that. I wasn't trying to be mean, I just don't like it when people bash on others for expressing their own beliefs.
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In reply to Joshuacrisel: Jobob can say whatever her heart desires. So can you. That doesn't give you the right to put her down for it. Also, chances are, this column was in no way directed specifically at you, and no one said you had to read it... alright, done with that. I wasn't trying to be mean, I just don't like it when people bash on others for expressing their own beliefs.
In reply to this column: first of all, I'd just like to say... I love you, LOL... finally, someone who has similar beliefs to mine. I've decided on my own beliefs based on what I know and think, and it's good to know I'm not the only one. You did a really good job of telling what you think without being pushy or rude. You just stated your opinions and let everyone else come up with their own, and I love that. Wonderful column with a great point... keep on writing!
~Kelsey -
For someone who doesn't care you're very vocal about it. I have no idea what you're trying to communicate, but you're certainly effusive...
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who cares!!! no one cares people have there rights to speak of there faith and u have no right to stop it okay?! and who cares just really i mean no1 really cares if u believe or not! i mean come on u cant tell me that if some one was to come up to u and say ur saved jesus loves u u really care?! i mean come on i believe in god myself but i dont care wat ppl think i dont talk on and on about my religion altho i have that RIGHT to talk about it i can talk about god whereever i want and i dont care wat the uk does if they dont talk about religion go them. we dont have to either but its a choice of christians to spread the word of the bible and i dont care i just dont care this was okay okay. but i dont care wat u have to say about the religion around ap i mean come on who really cares first off this is the internet so it really shouldnt matter wat others say! and if it does then jesus christ stop sitting on this thing all day and get a damn life. but if u dont care like em then go you i am sick of ppl saying oh i dont want to talk about god who cares wat u want?? i mean if u dont want them then just tell them i mean shit come on oh well it doesnt matter religion is religion no1 is saying u HAVE to believe in god we are mostly just saying jesus is the way home okay so yeah but to me i dont care. anyways yeah bye
Joshua -
I love it when people try to convert me. (Sarcasm.)
Obviously because I have tattoos, I must not really be a Christian. Obviously because I like to use "naughty" words, I must not really be a Christian. Somebody handed me a pamphlet one day entitled, "Is there a God?". That bothered me. Instead of talking to me about it, and finding out, that, yes, I do know God, they made this assumption. I really wish that all of these people who feel it is their duty to harass people into their particular belief system would stop and think about it before they speak. (sigh)
Spirituality is entirely different from religion. Ideally, spirituality would be the biggest part of religion, but that doesn't always happen.
Great little column. Thanks.
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Well said
Everyone has their own path in life and spirit. The intolerance and disrespect of others shown by many people here and in the wider world is also upsetting to me; the Golden Rule is given lipservice by those Christians who reject the faith of other sincere believers.
I believe that the spiritual life of any person is a matter for his/her own conscience, and the higher power, if desired. It is the height of arrogance, to me, to generalise from my experience to all others. What works for me now is not what I needed when I was younger - it will not fit most other people.
Good writing, I agree with you.
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amen, sister! you preach it loud!!
lol, christians here in the US are annoying to say the least. they all believe that only their religion is worth merit and even have severe disagreements with other denominations of the same religion. in all honesty, they make me sick, preaching that god is love and only jesus can save you.
god doesn't exist and jesus is dead. save yourself.
oh, and in case you didn't know, you don't get any extra points for converting anyone so leave off it already. go leave some asskissing comments on someone poetry
you go, jobob!
Edited on Jun 05, 12:26 because ''.
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