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Is your bipolar depression and/or panic/ocd treated?

A compilation of some of the tidbits I've learned over the years.

IS YOUR BIPOLAR DEPRESSION AND/OR PANIC/OCD TREATED?

This is long, but that's only because I've learned a lot about this topic.  Symptoms of these disorders can seem very mysterious.

First, my story:
I have always been pretty depressive.  ADHD also, treated since the early 1980s (Dad is a psychiatrist).  Obsessed about my flaws, mistakes, and the misfortunes or consequences that I just knew were always lurking right around the corner.  I always got nearly perfect grades.  Part of the way I stayed sane was by playing every sport I could learn to play, and by knowing that I was a sharp guy.
Junior high was (what else?) hell.
During my freshman year of high school, my two best friends moved away, and my grandfather--to whom I was very close--died.  Senior year, I learned that I had a sun-sensitive depression called Seasonal Affective Depression Syndrome (SADS).  Very easily treated by sitting in front of an extremely bright full-spectrum lamp for about 45 minutes daily.  I will discuss that later.

Stuff happened.  My new best friend (whom I had actually known since grade 2) died a horrible death at the hands of Muscular Dystrophy.  His eulogy was given by a Christian fundamentalist, who told us all that it's not quite good enough to be a good person; you'll still go to hell unless blah blah blah.  This wonderful person--with whom I never once discussed religion--was sent off with nary a single word spoken to his credit, and he deserved a lot. 

Went to college.  First Xmas break, parents got divorced.  Grades suffered briefly; graduated.  Degree in Mathematics.  No idea what to do with it.

Got married to the most wonderful, amazing woman ever minted.  Almost learned that marriage means a lot more than I thought.  Struggled for 4 years to figure out why I was sometimes a gentle, caring, romantic husband, and other times a totally unreasonable (albeit nonviolent), selfish, self-centered asshole who didn't listen, constantly felt judged, couldn't apologize, and looked for things to resent about everyone.  The transition between the two states was totally unpredictable, imperceptible to me, and very quick.  It made my poor wife miserable.

I love her more than my life, and yet I could not control this problem.  Over time I learned to prevent myself from saying mean things and speaking loudly, but those were just symptoms.  I was terrified of hurting her, which made me terribly anxious.  I felt horrible when I did, which made me hate myself.  Since I knew myself to be well-meaning, guilt about anything I might have done "wrong," or "bad" made me feel defiant ["I can't always be wrong, because I am not bad."] , which flipped the switch quite often.  Wash, rinse, then repeat.

Went back to school.  Made a good friend, with whom I lifted weights and discussed "life."  One day, after an extremely rotten evening brought about by what I've described, my friend and I had just finished doing a heavy leg routine.  Nothing happened.  No pain, no popping noise, no sudden discomfort.  Nothing. In fact, I broke my personal record.  Then we went our separate ways for the day.
Dave, who would earn his PhD a few months later, and take a job 1,000 miles away, sat at his desk. I sat at mine.  At the end of the day, he felt fine.  When I got up, my knees no longer worked.  In a matter of hours, they went from capable of bearing 400-pound barbells without complaint to incapable of bearing my bodyweight without pain. Both knees went bad simultaneously, and in exactly the same way ... right after nothing happened.  Ever hear of a sports injury like that?  Me neither. 
Nearly 3 years later, they were still not right.  They felt hot to the touch, and creaked like rusty hinges.  I could feel a grinding sensation.  Horrible pain.  I had to use orthotics, and could hardly walk even then, despite that I was taking the same anti-inflammatory drug that is prescribed for sufferers of severe arthritis.  Some days, it was excruciating to do nothing but just sit stationary. 

All signs seemed to point to arthritis due to knee injury.  It made sense; I played basketball constantly, ran, and lifted heavy weights with my legs on a regular basis.  The only problem with that diagnosis, strangely enough, was that MRIs and CT scans of both knees were 100% normal.  No torn cartilage, no bone spurs, no problems with ligaments ... nothing.  Just horrible, inexplicable pain all the time.  I saw an orthopedist and two sports medicine doctors, both affiliated with the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine (i.e. they were good.)  I tried everything: braces, ice wraps, compresses, body awareness techniques, physical therapy, zero-impact exercise, chondroitin (which made my problem worse), acupuncture, and even injections of fluid directly into my knee joints (avoid this experience if at all possible) to reduce friction.  The injections helped some, but the problem persisted, despite no apparent ailment.
That was just before I got into graduate school (Chemical Physics).  Ten days before classes started, my wife hit her head at work.  She sustained a serious concussion, and was bed-bound for a full year, dizzy all the time, with headaches, nausea, neck pain ... the works.  Theoretically (and thankfully), she would recover fully.  Meanwhile, I had zero time, piles of impossible homework, equally difficult exams to study for, and classes to teach ... and my knees were still defunct.  I was impossible to live with.

I started failing tests over material I understood.  I found it impossible to study.  Homework took forever.  I failed whole classes.  I miserably failed the graduate qualifying exam.  All this despite that, at least according to IQ tests, I am quite well equipped.  I am still a graduate student today only because the school broke the rules for me, and, in perhaps the most miraculous event of my life, the National Institutes of Health called me up to offer me a fellowship to pay for the education I had just lost all funding for.

I started getting pain and numbness in my wrists and forearms.  My teeth would grind at night.  My neck was an amazing mess of knots, and the muscles were in a constant state of spasm.  The muscles in my neck and shoulders actually became shorter.  My jaw popped painfully when I chewed.  I was a total asshole to my wife.  Everything I did at school turned to garbage.  I was worthless around the house.  Didn't want to do anything or see anyone.  I hated myself.

And then one day, my therapist said the following: "Have you ever considered that you might have a mood disorder?  Have you ever tried Depakote?" 
Depakote is a drug used to treat Bipolar Depression.  Turns out I have Type II.  For this I was prescribed a newer drug called Lamictal; also a drug called Wellbutrin, which is an antidepressant.  Within the span of a month, the knee pain I experienced while sedentary vanished entirely.  If I was careful, walking and climbing stairs was painless. All numbness  and wrist pain vanished.  Still couldn't run or jump, but I wasn't complaining.

Still had horrible problems with anxiety.  My anxiety used to be so extreme that my mind's coping mechanism was to just kind of zone out. I would stare blankly at the wall, or people's faces, or anything else, but maybe not really see it. It felt like my body was more of a suit that I wore. I was constantly missing things people would say to me. I was even more forgetful, and lost things even more often than an ADHD is expected to. I was "in my body" when I was having sex, and pretty much never, otherwise.  People I didn't know would tell my wife about how I didn't "seem present." Almost every time there was a theoretical potential (or if it felt like there might be, or if I decided to interpret words in an uncharitable way) that I might have to admit guilt, I would just check out ...because I'm worth nothing to the world unless I'm always at my absolute best ... and "NO! I'm not a guilt-feeling, bad person. I try really hard, so I deserve some credit! I will get there if I try harder. I am the only one who understands me, so I can't count on anyone, including my own wife."
Cumulative collateral damage from 4 years of my BP cycling ultimately brought our marriage to the very brink of disintegration.  As I write this, my wife lives in our house, and I am in an apartment, figuring out who the hell I am. 

A couple of weeks ago I started taking a medication called Klonopin for panic disorder.  Now I can wake up in the morning and want to do things, and I almost always wake up in the mood I was in when I fell asleep.  That used to be impossible.  I can plan to do things, and then actually do them.  I can listen.  Apologize.  I have not felt pain in my knees since. Yesterday I played basketball.  Basketball.
And do you know what makes my situation different from all the rah-rah stories you see on TV?  I was a generally pessimistic doom-sayer all along.  The whole time, I did nothing but bitch.  If my head hadn't been up my butt so long, I could have avoided three long years of misery, plus I'd be 2/3 of the way toward my PhD.

Bipolar Depression and Panic disorders like General Panic Disorder and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder are not the kind of things you can just "fix" by pure force of will. If such were not the case, I would not be writing this. I only just recently kicked anxiety, and it was because I sought treatment. Never felt better. 

Know what else?  Bipolar depression is so strongly correlated to suicidal tendencies that I have been refused life insurance because of it. Leaving a condition like that untreated isn't just a way to feel miserable; it's also a good way to stop breathing. In the lyrics of a song he recorded in 1993, entitled Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle, Curt Cobain wrote, "I miss the comfort of being sad."  Not too long after that, he turned a shotgun on himself. Recall that Cobain also wrote a song entitled Lithium.  Lithium salts are used in treating Type I Bipolar Depression.

We interpret stimuli by filtering them through our senses; first we sense, then some part of the brain tells us what to do. Burn your hand on the stove, and a part of your brain just above the brain stem is what makes you to pull your hand back. No pain receptors in your hand? Your hand burns until you smell it. Despite what pop culture would have us believe, emotion is a sense--the social sense. Sad, happy, pissed, languid, etc., are all just different aspects of that sense, which we use to interpret the world, and hence, to determine how to react accordingly. Throw a kink in any one of the senses, and suddenly things work much differently. Ask anyone who has gone blind. Our society discourages the expression of certain emotions.  Ever wonder why we like to shoot each other so much?
If your computer's CDROM drive breaks, you get a new CDROM drive. If the CPU goes, time for a new computer. Understand the analogy? The brain controls everything in the body, and only one kind of physician knows anything about it that doesn't involve knives. A neurologist will hook you up to machine, and tell you all about your brain waves and all about your nerves, because that's what neurology is about. When it comes to the health of the actual gray matter that controls those nerves, neurology will not give you answers.

If you've not been to a psychiatrist, I think it's likely you have a very unrealistic impression of what you'd be confronted with. Here's what happens when I go see mine:
"Hi, Morgan."
Hi
"How are you feeling?"
I've got this tightness in my upper chest, and I have a hard time breathing sometimes. Also, I get numbness in my hands and arms up to the elbow, and have trouble sleeping.
"Do you hear voices?"
No.
"Feel like hurting anyone?"
No.
"Hurting yourself?"
No.
.
.
etc.
.
.
"I think you might have a panic disorder (closely related to OCD), and so I'm going to write you a prescription for 2mg klonopin daily."

Not much different from the foot doctor, when you think about it, and just like all physicians, psychiatrists are bound to strict confidentiality.  You'll be asked if you see things or hear voices. You might get asked about how you've felt over the past week.  You'll be asked questions about events in your life up to the present.  The "Tell me about your mother..." stuff is media-contrived garbage, though.  Furthermore, a psychiatrist is less likely to make you feel uncomfortable.  Psychiatrists spend all day listening to people's bad experiences.  It's hard to be good at that without a tendency to be earnestly compassionate and empathetic.  Find a bad egg?  Who's writing the checks?  Fire 'em. 


Think psychiatrists are just for crazy people?  Think again.  If my experience looks familiar, too, think again really hard, because you will not get better without proper treatment. Which sounds worse: exploring an uncomfortable possibility, or being constantly miserable for the rest of your life?  How about a shorter life?  Think hard.


IF YOU EXPERIENCE CHRONIC PAIN WITH NO APPARENT CAUSE
Did you know that chronic pain and the inflammatory response can be nothing more than symptoms of severe depression and panic/anxiety?  Treating the panic wiped out 95% of my social anxiety, and now my knees work right again.
I am nominally in the know on this topic. Here is what I understand:

Stress, anxiety, and panic are linked to increased inflammatory response (which for me acted just like really severe arthritis), shorter lifespan, hypertension, clogged arteries, heart disease, decreased immune response, insulin resistance and Type II Diabetes, several forms of cancer, weight gain, depression, broken marriages, suicide, homicide, and most definitely insomnia. I think histamine response is in there somewhere, too.
The connection has its root in interactions between omega-3, -6, and -9 fatty acids, various derivatives thereof, and an elaborate mix of hormones and cytokines that do so many different things in so many different parts of the body, it is absolutely breathtaking. The material is not fresh in my mind, but I do recall that among the important agents are cortisol (aka “the stress hormone”), leptin (which, among many, many other things, advises the hypothalamus on the subject of whether your body needs more or less fat and/or sugar, and regarding what should be done with the same), norepinephrine (aka “noradrenaline”), somatotropin (aka “human growth hormone”), adiponectin (one notable among an endless list of cytokines), interleuken-1 (aka “the devil incarnate”), IGF-1(aka “IGF-1”), melanin, and I think dopamine (a neurotransmitter you've most likely heard if you have ADHD).
This phenomenology is the subject of a lot current research. I can't see the big picture, but nobody else can, either. I studied it (OK, mainly read about it--I was depressed ) for a time at the Kidney Institute in the National Institutes of Health, and I've had numerous conversations with my dad, the shrink, about the role it plays in psychological/psychosomatic symptomology. Therefore, I'll take the liberty of claiming I know at least something. Bear with me, because I'm coming to the point.

Do you drink much milk? Milk protein can turn the aforementioned biochemical skirmish into a fully-blown war. If you've tried everything else, and you believe I'm not writing this to amuse myself, then you might consider the conducting following experiment:

(1) Swear off of dairy in favor of soy, and then (2) go get yourself a ton of essential fatty acid supplements, (3) antioxidant tablets (esterified vitamin C, vitamin A, and, if you can afford it, CoEnzyme-Q), and (4) metabolite metal supplements (Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc).
As it turns out, recommendations based upon national averages apply to average situations. If these symptoms were average, they wouldn't be called symptoms, though, would they? Take about twice the the dosage recommended. Never, ever do this with B-vitamins, though, or you will likely reach a state of enlightenment that has nothing to do with nirvana.

The Omega-3,6, and 9 fatty acids are the most important part. FISH OILS are absolutely essential! Make sure you're getting at least 800 mg of eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid daily (these are found in said oils). You'll be doing yourself a favor, too, if you eat a fair amount of tuna and salmon. Wolf down that sushi. Get yourself some folic acid and some gamma-linoleic acid, and take no less than 1000 iu of vitamin E daily. If you can find supplements with extended release, that's ideal. Your GI tract will throw away a lot less useful stuff that way.

If you're wondering whether I'm a bullshit artist--well ... goodfats.pamrotella.com/
I'm not.

IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN
It's entirely possible that you gamble with more heads than just your own when you do not treat Bipolar Depression. BP can't but cause friction, disagreement, and irrational bouts of rage in a marriage (see above), which could only get worse with the added stress of children.  One of the best ways for children to develop low self-esteem and deep-seeded, misplaced rage is to see regular displays of contempt and frequent disagreement between their parents--especially in their expression of love toward one another, and as disciplinarians. Further, according to both the books, and my experience BP disorder is characterized by periods of variation in mood, attention, and outlook. If mom or dad is all over the map during a child's formative years, sometimes kids can develop a tendency toward varying levels of antisocial behavior. It's called Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), and there are books about it. I'm told that Judith Viorst wrote a good one called Necessary Losses
My brother and I had good parents, and so you'll hear no gory details from me.  However, my brother became so impossible that the only effective way of preventing his self-destruction wound up being military school. These are the reasons I see a therapist every single week.  I'm not a parent, so I hope I'm not sounding like a preachy, know-it-all dilettante. RAD fucked me up. No idea what your life at home is like, but I hear a lot of talk about these subjects, so I thought I'd just toss you a bit of FYI.

SUNLIGHT SENSITIVITY (AKA SEASONAL AFFECTIVE DISORDER)
Forgot to mention something extremely important: Particularly for folks who live in upper latitudes, who are therefore subject to more dominantly long-wavelength light for more of the year (gets worse the further you get from the equator). Sun sensitivity, is ridiculously easy to treat. You don't pop a single pill, you will notice the difference the very same day, and it will absolutely floor you how much of your mind seems to just exist all of a sudden.
All you need is a sun replacement lamp ( www.sunbox.com ). If you can't afford one (they are pricey), I might be able to make do with a cluster of a few of those blue full-spectrum light bulbs. Get up at exactly the same time every morning (6AM or earlier strongly recommended), no matter what; go for a walk and have a look around, and make a point of noticing things while you're at it. Then go sit in front of your light. I have this huge fluorescent thing that puts out a rather impressive amount of light, so for me it takes maybe 20-30 minutes each morning to get my head right. If you're just using bulbs, you may need to go a bit longer. The bummer with incandescent bulbs is that they're hot up close, but that's how it goes.
Sit CLOSE to the light, and let it hit you square in the face. I usually read a book or write while doing it, but even then I make absolutely certain that the light hits me in the face. In winter months, you'll find that you can look directly at the light from a very short distance without the least bit of discomfort. When I lived in the dorms during undergrad, people would walk past my room, and see me sitting comfortably right in front of a lamp that blinded them from across the room. It works very, very well, if you're interested, and it's just as important as the meds. Additionally, I find the 5:00 hour to be my favorite of the entire day. I am smarter, and get more done, and I am also in a happier mood. Sounds goofy, but there are a lot of biochemical pathways that rely on sunlight at specific wavelengths (synthesis of Vitamin D, use of the neurotransmitter melotonin, CoEnzyme Q, and some others), and it makes a much bigger difference than I ever would have imagined.
Humans evolved close to the equator, where sunlight is dominated by middle wavelengths year-round, and we have had a stable karyotype (genetic "format" for 100,000 years. If you really understand Darwin's ideas, you know that that means we stopped evolving 1,000 centuries ago. At the equator, the sun comes up at 6 all year. Stands to reason that people who live there with no fridge, no Bisquick, and no alarm clock would learn to wake at sunrise, and then go find some yummies. That involves paying close attention to something (finding the berries, sneaking up on the giant sloth, etc.), which is akin to the morning walk. As people migrated north/south, their sunlight changed, but they did not (since they were not evolving). So their bodies wanted the sunlight they were used to at the equator, and they were getting something else. Pretty much everyone feels better with full-spectrum bulbs in all the indoor lamps, so perhaps it's a simple question of degrees of light-sensitivity. At a certain level, it's called Seasonal Affective Depression Syndrome (SADS).
Guess what SADS correlates very strongly with: BPII/anxiety.


YOU'LL GET BETTER HELP IF YOU EDUCATE YOURSELF

Re: How to find a psychiatrist who doesn't suck
panicdisorder.about.com/b/a/116908.htm

 

Re: Anxiety Disorders (General, OCD, Panic)
www.webmd.com/content/article/60/67106.htm

 

www.webmd.com/content/article/60/67150.htm

 

Re: Bipolar Depression
www.moodswing.org/treatments.htm#epa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_depression 

 

 

Well, that's it.  Hope I've said something useful.  It took forever to do so.
Best,
Morgan

.

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  • Hulali
    February 10, 2007
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    OK, so...

    What do you do if you are on the receiving end of the symptoms, rather than experiencing them? Mentioning "disorder," "depression," or "treatment," or anything even remotely close to the subject is a sure way to get wrath turned on me immediately. Hell, I caught a fire for licking my fingers at dinner a couple days ago, let alone talk about something heavy like this.

    He has an almost paranoid hatred of shrinks of any kind. He says that it's just the way he is and I should stop trying to change him. I'm usually an extremely patient person, but I'm at the end of my line.

    • JustBe gold member
      February 12, 2007
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      Wrath?

      What do you mean by that "wrath?" How bad are we talking about here? Is he passive-aggressive, the regular kind, or "turbo?" If he's anything like I was AND he's not willing to consider the imperfections of his perspective.... Well, I'm not going to go and tell you what to do, because that's not my place, but I will say that if I were my wife, I wouldn't even know me at this point. I've been seeing a therapist weekly for almost three years now, and would saw my arm off on her behalf, but I just couldn not hear her for what she was really saying. I heard what the part of me that hates myself wanted to hear. There was nothing she could do to get through to me. I was a well-meaning person then just like I am today, and earnestly wanted to work on our relationship. Problem is it didn't have anything to do with her. She was married to high explosives. Life is so short. I say do right by #1, whatever that may mean.
      You don't have to live in hell. Hopefully you don't.

  • MayDecemberSun
    January 26, 2007
    Edit | Reply

    And yet...

    On a second reading I have to say my circumstances have changed completely since I last wrote my self-sastisfied, smug comment about my supportive spouse and blah blah blah.

    I went manic in April of 06 and was hospitalized twice and learned how much I really couldn't stand my "supportive" but uninterested spouse. He did the best he could, but it wasnt what I needed or the best for me. So he's not my spouse anymore, selfish as that might seem. It was a matter of survival. He didnt get it.

    I'm so much stronger now after two hospitalizations this year and much counseling--I am not completely on my own--I'm with someone else who is also bipolar and he doesnt treat me like a child. Finally I am a grown woman, flawed, yes, talented, yes, and really and trully GROWN. Responsible. STRONG. Outspoken but naive still. I guess that naivete will stick with me, but bless me, it's me.

    Thanks for the opportunity to blab and blab. You're the tops.

    Ruby

  • JustBe gold member
    May 4, 2006
    Edit | Reply
    How truly warm and fuzzy! Thanks for your words. And I'll thank the gods for any and all help they send my way.
    Best,
    Morgan

  • onerios13
    May 4, 2006
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    because I'm worth nothing to the world unless I'm always at my absolute best ... and "NO! I'm not a guilt-feeling, bad person. I try really hard, so I deserve some credit! I will get there if I try harder.

    Nahh...you thought these thoughts because, in reality, you must be part Asian.

    But seriously, this was a deeply engrossing, endearing, and ultimately excellent column. And like elaine, I was intensely interested and truly effected. Not for myself, per se, as I am a simply average person who the gods did not feel moved to touch in such a manner, but for someone who was both near and dear to me...a someone that faced your very demons, but was not fortunate enough to face them down. I'm sure you've seen her face on my page and perhaps even read some of her exquisite poetry. She was my best friend, my partner in crime, and my very blood cousin. Teresa was insanely gifted (no pun intended), and someone I both admired and abhorred. When she was right with the world, everything was right. The sun shone brighter, the colors moved like songs from mermaids' throats, and dammit, you just couldn't help but adore her very dandruff. But when she turned (like a pin drop), it sucked like a straw. Charismatic as a diva and crueler than Don Rickles, she could make you break...into a sweat or your red red heart, and she did it not because she had control over it, but because she was born this way, and no amount of prayers, gummy bears or even that silly thing we call logic, could save her from herself.

    In the end, she found peace in a bay where I am quite sure, still possesses one of her shoes at its murky bottom. She did do the pills, the religion, the family, and everything else that should've made her stronger and better...but she died alone, with no one around and no one who could understand. I still don't. And I don't think I ever will. I'm still too busy resenting her for leaving me, actually. Still pissed beyond all capacity that she dared go ahead of me instead of residing next to my 80 year old ass in some Shady Pines for the elderly. Still excruiciatingly enraged that I am left only with her memory...and as a witness to her life and genius. I just don't think it's fair that someone who had made me so laugh so much, could make me cry even harder.

    So I feel for both you and your wife, and I am so thankful to you for writing this. Because in a way, I wonder, if she had lived, perhaps she would've written something similar to explain to me what was going on her head. So I could begin to forgive her...

    You are a special friend and one that I know will triumph over all that stands in your way and happiness. Please continue to fight, please continue to prove your worth and love to others...for if you do, then somewhere, somehow, I won't think her life was lived in vain.

    Take care, darling, and my the gods guide you on your path...


    Darcy



  • misselaineous gold member
    April 17, 2006
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    i read this with much interest

    i had a severe bout of depression about 10 years ago which lead to my being given Electro Convulsive Therapy - i was heavily dosed with venlafaxine for over two years and weaned myself off them and am now drug free but suffering from time to time.

    there are many similariies here with my own wayward scenario/life/crises

    I was always a high achiever, but through mental illness lost a lucrative career and nearly my family and life itself - I have retrained and returned to work

    I now have chronic joint and muscle pain, unbearable pain and sensations in my limbs which my GP thinks is fibromyalgia/rheumatoid based. Drugs do not help. I do have mood swings - go from being hyper productive and focussed - to being a complete waste of space - have irrational fears and thoughts too... my family are long suffering. My saving is a therapist who i also visit every week.

    My younger life was pretty fucked up so i guess i have used that as a pointer/excuse [if it can be called that - probably not] i guess but i am really interested in what you have to say about fish oils etc and will certainly research some more.

    I just wanted to say thank you for sharing this with me, and for guiding me in a way i did not know existed - the Uk is about 5 years behind in all this stuff ~ thanks again - i have bookmarked this so i can return and reread again later - hope thats ok
    BRAVO for posting this
    elaine

  • The Angellightwolf
    March 30, 2006
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    Dearest Morgan, I see your point entirely but less we forget the ppl that will take a handful when they weigh 90 lbs. Your such an interesting intelligent person. Salmon gives me a headache and so does some tuna. Anyways, I am enjoying our discussions.

  • Rose Dark Thorn gold member
    March 30, 2006
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    Wow. I have to say that this was a rather interesting read. I never knew very much about any of this, though I have heard of the seasonal depression. I had no idea people could get such horrid pain from being so emotionally worked up. Probably just my paranoia or something...because I certainly don't think I'm this bad, though I do have my moments. I've gotten pain in areas of my body randomly...no real reason, but it usually doesn't last any longer than a day or anything. But anyway, this was very informative. I do hope everything works out for you now.

  • LadyUnique silver member
    March 30, 2006
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    lamictal is the drug my shrink and i finally found that worked this was after a year's worth of experimenting. you should see my 'leftover' drugs
    i've never tried all the natural supplements you've mentioned. once i'm on my feet financially again i believe i will. so i've saved your column in my personal files.
    Cymbalta is also good for pain. i've done lots of research on Multiple Sclerosis and that was mentioned a few times. i also take neurontin for anxiety and pain. this is another drug which is also helpful to MS. i only take the xanax as needed.
    i stopped by to read this again i've featured it a few times for you too...to get the word out to people who are suffering and totally lost as to what could be wrong

  • JustBe gold member
    March 29, 2006
    Edit | Reply
    Thanks for the heads-up about the typo.

    The thing with the dietary supplements is that they aren't prescribed. The FDA won't touch that with a 10' pole. There are recommended daily dosages, and those are based upon national averages, as determined by studies conducted on the general population. I'll admit that any two given people are guaranteed to be very nearly identical, genetically speaking. The same is also arguably true of any given person and a head of romaine lettuce, though; it's just a question of degrees. Afterall, "species" roughly means "bunch of folks who are similar enough to reproduce without producing a freak show." The idea of homo sapiens is academic. The justification is semantic.

    There is absolutely no way to control all but one variable in an in vivo study. The fudge factor is staggering. There are so many chemical species running around in the human body (an untold number of which we've not yet identified, let alone characterized), that it would absolutely blow your mind. Worse, many of them act very differently in different situations. Studies like that can be helpful, yes, but can they be used as a basis for making general conclusions about mankind? The idea is preposterous. Want an analog? Take 100 each of all known species of bird, and set them loose inside 1,000,000 square miles of caged-in forest for 500 years. Cut down all the cedar trees once. When the study is up, instruct the descendents of your descendents (etc.) to come to a definite conclusion about how the absence of cedar trees effects birds.

    Even with all the money the government gives NIH, the Kidney Institute was paying me to [fail to] create an oversimplified model of an overgeneralized endocrinological process (fat cell growth/differentiation). I was using time-series data taken from rat models, in which 3 (not 3,000) genetically altered rats ("Zucker rats," with defunct Leptin receptors) were assayed (i.e. killed) at predetermined times. Then, since dead rats make bad live models, a totally different rat was subbed in for it. That's not even justifiable if all the rats are clones. What if one of them gets bitten by another? What if the new rat was hopping mad when it was put to sleep? Bang. Different physiological responses; different rats. This was given to me as my basis for drawing mathematical models of phenomena related to insulin resistance, obesity, pancreatic Beta cell death, and Type II diabetes in humans.

    Maybe it's just because I'm of the math/physics/chemistry persuasion, but if you ask me, that, my friend, is class 1A shit science. Art, perhaps, or an exercise in intuition, but not science. We'll never know precisely how it all fits together.

    Do your symptoms fit the national average? Mine don't. If your hypothalamus is engaged in a positive feedback loop with the pain receptors in your back, and Interleukins are wreaking havoc on your inflammatory response, why not take more Omega 3s to counterbalance the problem--especially since it works? We're talking about a vanishingly small dosage of fatty acids and tocopherols, plus some metabolite metals most folks don't get enough of, anyway. Antioxidants also boost immune response, and help you avoid cancer by eliminating free-radicals. Magnesium ion complexes are just frigging everywhere in your metabolic processes.
    I could go on and on, like I already have 3 or 4 times on this thread, but I'm sick of typing, and I'll bet you're sick of reading.
    I'll end with a request: If you ever hear of someone dying because they ate too much freshwater salmon, please send me a link to the news article.

  • The Angellightwolf
    March 29, 2006
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    Well, I am so happy your much better!

  • JustBe gold member
    March 29, 2006
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    Two physiatrists and an orthopedist. Acupuncture, synvisc, muscle strengthening, zero-impact exercise, and physical therapy. I was on Vioxx for a month or so, too. None of it worked. 350mg lamictal and a bit of Klonopin, and BAM! All gone.

  • JustBe gold member
    March 29, 2006
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    Damn. Cymbalta is a sledgehammer. Plus, you're on two benzodiazepine derivatives, and you're still prone to high anxiety? Your GABA receptors must be sleeping like babies. You sure you're properly diagnosed? If that much heavy equipment isn't getting the job done, seems to me it could be something altogether different. Is it panic anxiety, with lots of clenched muscles, or is it just obsessive thought?
    If it's the latter, ask your doc about Abilify and Perphenazine.
    If it's the former, could it just be you're wired?
    Spring is in the air, if you get my meaning. Some times seasonal depressives (?) can get a mean case of pissed off/up-tight because of all that Dopamine/Neurepinephrine that gets cut loose by the sun. Kinda like drinking 10 double espressos. Do you feel like punching people?

  • The Angellightwolf
    March 29, 2006
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    Fantastic read

    oh and one more thing Morgan. Did you seek out a sports specialist Doctor? & Yes, I am medication treated for ADD with Strattera and I take prozac also but that is all for now. I try to get exercise to help the pain. I have vitamins and herbs but sometimes don't take them. I will cut out the dairy again, thanks for reminding me.

  • The Angellightwolf
    March 29, 2006
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    Simply Marvelous Darling!

    Morgan, On the 10th paragraph My _ grind at night,I assume you meant to write teeth, that word is missing. Thank you so much Morgan for all the information, I do not agree with telling someone to take twice the amount of any medication if not prescribed in that amount. As far as the lamp therapy, I suppose that could be useful to some ppl especially those that live in cold and rainy climates most of the year but sunlight is the best source of vitamins and energy. Soy milk, I love the stuff and if your a menopausal woman it is helpful. Great write! Good links too. I am very impressed with your honesty about your marriage and your part in the conflict. You sound to me to be an artistic, person who is a bit tempermental and that is usually tolerated in most circles I know. At least the ppl I find to be important in my life tolerate me as eccentric as I am and with OCD, depressive personality, ADD, and just a dominant and bitchy woman who likes things my way. Oh! I was also diagnosted with fibromyaligia which to me is a scape goat for anything that aches and can't be explained right away. Thank you for airing out your findings and feelings.
    Edited on Mar 29, 7:03 p.m. because 'mispelled word'.

  • WordWraith
    March 29, 2006
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    Good

    I have to say that it was cool that you took the time to outline everything. My mother suffers from chronic depression so this was very real for me.

  • LadyUnique silver member
    March 29, 2006
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    i read every word
    you've done a fantastic job of describing each one these disorders. i'm glad you mentioned the actual physical pain that can be a symptom. my anxiety disorder is acting up big time right now and my back is killing me. duh i too take klonopin and xanax...cymbalta for depression. i'm not depressed but the anxiety is another story
    i admire how you've introduced the medical terminology in a way that's easy to understand. you've mixed the terminology with personal experience and humor so it's interesting to read.
    i applaud this column

  • Zayra Yves gold member
    March 27, 2006
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    Good for you Morgan. This is awesome what you have written to encourage others to reach out for more education and self help and support. I am proud of you!

  • JustBe gold member
    March 24, 2006
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    You know, of course, that left untreated, BPI can lead to far worse things ...right?

  • DefinitiveFreak
    March 24, 2006
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    Yeah, type I. I'm not treated because I refuse to be. Any medication I've ever been on has made me sick. I'm actually worse on medication. I have knee problems too, that root in my spine. My back condition is scoliosis, and affects a lot of other physical pains. But when I'm in manic mode, there's not as much pain, and sometimes no pain at all.

  • JustBe gold member
    March 24, 2006
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    Serotonin is everyone's favorite! It's synthesized from the amino acid Tryptophan, so I'll bet turkey's full of that.

    Are you Type I? Why do you still cycle? Are you not treated? If you are, with what? Lamictal is fabulous, if you've never given it a shot. Stabilizes mood, panic, and depression (not to mentino muscle spasms) all at once. I don't really cycle at all anymore.
    Have you thought about the possibility that your back might be like my knees? They didn't hurt, either whenever I was hypomanic. Then when I hit bottom, they sucked again. Why not give the fish oils a good look? They help treat BP, too. Read all about it here:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Treatment_of_bipolar_disorder

    Lack of discomfort during an up, I would think, would be more likely due to higher levels of Dopamine/Norepinephrine, since Norepinephrine stimulates the release of epinephrine (aka adrenlaline). The SNS squelches pain (to which anyone who has been injured during an adrenalin rush can attest), and keeps you wired (for several days, in the case of bonafide mania). My guess would be that the serotonin is the cherry on top that gives the feeling of invincibility. On a down, as you say, you don't really want to do much of anything. Maybe that just means too much synaptic uptake of dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin.

  • DefinitiveFreak
    March 24, 2006
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    Hmm. I have to agree with what you were saying about diet and vitamins etc. I found that when I ate a couple of meals worth of fresh turkey breast one week, I had higher energy levels and concentration levels. I was absolutely amazed. See, turkey has a protein in it that aids the release of serotonin. And serotonin is my favourite hormone! Happyyyyyyyy stuff! Anyway, what you said about physical ailments being linked to mental ones is absolutely true. I've always noticed that when I'm in my downside of bipolar, my back hurts more than usual. This is because when I'm sad, I don't tend to do anything, and my back condition is triggered by inactivity. So when I'm in 'normal' or in manic mode, I'm more active and in very little or no pain. Basically serotonin gives a sense of well-being, relaxes tense muscles, and puts a smile on my face hehe. So I would highly recommend to anyone (non-veggies) to eat turkey! Turkey's good. Maybe that's why it's eaten at Christmas, to take people's minds off the fact they've gotten themselves into debt because of the huge amounts of presents they've bought!

  • JustBe gold member
    March 24, 2006
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    It's actually a kludge of messages I've sent people on this site over recent months. I got tired of repeatedly cut-pasting, so I just balled it all up, checked for redundancies, and presto!
    Discovering this stuff changed my life, and will almost certainly save my marriage. This is like a way of caring for everyone at once. Did you reed the link titled VERY INTERESTING? It's way cool, if you ask me, and explains a lot of why there are so many cutting poems on this site.

  • penman gold member
    March 24, 2006
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    This is a very long, but informative piece. I'm glad you shared it with the readers at All Poetry.

  • JustBe gold member
    March 24, 2006
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    Why, you're very welcome! Glad to hear all that typing didn't go completely by the wayside.
    My wife has been absolutely terrific, too. It just hasn't been much good for her to be married to a someone who expects here to a mother/wife/therapist, and doesn't know how to be supportive 1/2 the time.
    By the way, have you read her stuff?
    allpoetry.com/poets/solsticehorse
    She's a genius, and based upon what you've written here, some of it might even strike a chord.

    Did you see this link? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Bipolar_disorder_and_creativity
    I found it more than just slightly enjoyable. Who says having manic panic neurotransmitters can't do good things?
    Best,
    Morgan

  • JustBe gold member
    March 24, 2006
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    So you're not bipolar? No depression? No panic/OCD? Where did I go amiss? Did you really read the whole thing? Sounds like you didn't, because I went into detail on every single point.
    I busted my butt writing this, and mostly on your behalf. I think at least a "Thanks, but ..." was warranted here. Apparently, that makes one of us. You're welcome.
    ~Morgan

  • MayDecemberSun
    March 24, 2006
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    Well I know you are no BS artist because I have been there myself, and without going into details, I totally agree with you based on my own experience. It is a constant experimentation with meds with me, like a lab rat. Geez. I'm just glad I have a supportive spouse who knows just as much as I do about BP, panic disorders, medications, the whole lot.

    Thanks so much for writing this.

  • MY lips will deny
    March 23, 2006
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    this doiesnt explain my sitution.

  • JustBe gold member
    March 23, 2006
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    No about Welbutrin, yes otherwise

    Mostly it's a dopamine/norepinephrin reuptake inhibitor, which means that it is increases sympathetic nervous activity, and is therefore clearly a plus for anyone with ADHD. Bipolar Disorder isn't fully understood.

    Here's a very oversimplified explanation of how it (supposedly) works for me:

    Sympathetic Nervous Stimulation for ADHD
    ADHD: not enough Dopamine, Norepinephrine ("uppers") uptake b/c receptors are lazy.
    Welbutrin: allows both of these to hang around a bit longer until the receptors get around to it.
    Adderall: Stimulates release of Dopamine, Norepinephrine (i.e. there's a higher concentration of it in the nerve synapse, therefore, more likely binding at receptors.

    Bipolar Disorder means depression with erratic, drastic mood swings.
    Bipolar high (mania/hypomania) can be provoked by the presence of high sympathetic nervous activity (like a constant adrenalin rush), unless there's a mood stabilizer.
    Lamictal: Also used as an anti-seizure medication, has antidepressant/mood stabilizing effects, but does not provoke mania. Maybe this means some sort of Serotonin activity, but I don't know.
    Panic
    Klonopin: a mild sedative that slams the door to some receptors.


    I searched bipolar disorder on Wikipedia. The entry is pretty comprehensive. Should have known. Maybe my column should've just been a hyperlink.

    Treatment of BP
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Treatment_of_bipolar_disorder

    VERY INTERESTING
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Bipolar_disorder_and_creativity

    An overview of antidepressants
    from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressants#Mechanism_of_action

    The therapeutic effects of antidepressants are believed to be related to an effect on neurotransmitters, particularly by inhibiting the monoamine transporter proteins of serotonin and norepinephrine. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) specifically prevent the reuptake of serotonin (thereby increasing the level of serotonin in synapses of the brain), whereas earlier monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) blocked the destruction of neurotransmitters by enzymes which normally break them down. Tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) prevent the reuptake of various neurotransmitters, including serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Although these drugs are clearly effective in treating depression, the current theory still leaves unanswered questions. For example, concentrations in the blood build to therapeutic levels in only a few days and begin affecting neurotransmitter activity immediately. Changes in mood, however, often take four weeks or more to appear. One explanation holds that the "down-regulation" of neurotransmitter receptors—an apparent consequence of excess signaling and a process that takes several weeks—is actually the mechanism responsible for the alleviation of depressive symptoms. Another theory, based on recent research published by the National Institutes of Health in the United States, suggests that antidepressants may derive their effects by promoting neurogenesis in the hippocampus.[1][2]. Recent research suggests that antidepressants act on transcription factors termed "clock genes" [3], which also are involved in actions of drugs of abuse and possibly in obesity [4][5].


    Welbutrin's mechanism of action
    From bipolar.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=bipolar&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psyweb.com%2FDrughtm%2Fbuprop.html

    Bupropion ( Amfebutamone, Wellbutrin, Zyban )

    Bupropion has a stimulant type of effect and is used primarily for the treatment of major depression. Bupropion can also be used to treat ADHD, Bipolar depression, to treat chronic fatigue syndrome, in reducing cocaine craving, to help kick smoking, and to reduce lower back pain. Bupropion was released for use in the United States of America in 1989.About 28% of persons taking this drug will loss five or more pounds and about 0.04% will experience seizures.

    Is Bupropion ( Amfebutamone, Wellbutrin, Zyban ) right for me?
    CLASS: Monocyclic Aminoketone.
    Generic name: Bupropion Hydrochloride.
    Type: Antidepressant.



    Summary
    From www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-b04.html#Head_12 :

    WELLBUTRIN SR Bioavail
    Bupropion HCI

    Use:
    Antidepressant (norephinephrine/dopamine reuptake inhibitor). Adults, 100 to 150 mg once daily. In patients unresponsive to a dose of 150 mg/day, the dose may be increased, at intervals of at least 1 week, to a maximum of 300 mg/day. Doses > 150mg/day should be given twice daily, preferably with at least 8 hours between successive doses. Severe hepatic impairment: If bupropion's use is deemed necessary, initiate therapy at a reduced dose, to a maximum dose of 100 mg every day or 150 mg every other day. Bupropion's effectiveness in long-term use (> 8 weeks) has not been systematically evaluated in controlled trials.

    Pharmacodynamics and Pharmacological Actions:
    The neurochemical mechanism of the antidepressant effect of bupropion is not known. Bupropion does not inhibit monoamine oxidase. Compared to classical tricyclic antidepressants, it is a weak blocker of the neuronal uptake of serotonin and norepinephrine; it also inhibits the neuronal re-uptake of dopamine to some extent.

    Panic Disorder
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_attacks

  • j-ay rose
    March 23, 2006
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    i should probably read this. i should probably do my paper too. there are lot of probably in life isn’t there.
    "Also a drug called Welbutrin, which is an antidepressant." That was very stupid of them. If I remember correctly isn't Welbutrin for serotonin whereas BP is a problem with more than just that but with dopamine also? [ps: im horrible with remembering the proper terminology.]

    "BP, OCD, and Panic are not the kind of things you can just "fix" by pure force of will." Why not damnit. >.<
    Prego women want to be mildly careful with the tuna because of the contaminates in it nowadays.
    The stuff about the sun doesn’t sound goofy although you could go into depth with that; the whole correlation between brain function, sun [vitamin D] and the fat from omega 3.
    "(1) Swear off of dairy in favor of soy, and then (2) go get yourself a ton of essential fatty acid supplements, (3) antioxidant tablets (esterified vitamin C, vitamin A, and, if you can afford it, CoEnzyme-Q), and (4) metabolite metal supplements (Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc)."
    This interests me a lot because I know someone with exactly the same thing as you but he drinks a shit load of milk and is on… uhh depacoat? I don't know.

    Anyhow, this was nicely informative and such. I still think you could expand it. I’m sure you could expand it a whole hell of a lot just because there is so many different aspects you could go into things.
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