WARNING THE VIEWS EXPRESSED IN THIS ARTICLE ARE NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF THE MANAGEMENT!!
I found this site whilst feeling very "down in the dumps" and enjoyed the offerings so much I joined. I was hooked from the start. On one site I could read lots of people attempting poetry just like I was and also view the "experts" on the companion Oldpoetry site. [See the link at the very bottom of the page folks].
My fit of the blues is gone but I am still writing here and thoroughly enjoying my own efforts and reading those of other like minded souls.
I cannot remember the name I first logged in as but the comments I read and received showed rhyme was not popular with many members. Being the awkward soul I am I changed my name to the present one and flaunted my love affair with rhymes. Yes I really do like rhymes.
People say that rhymes are not necessary, that they take the reader's mind away from the subject, that they are just a quick fix for bad poetry; and maybe in some cases they are correct. However I still like them and so do my folk club audiences. The only places where I receive resistance to rhymes is at my regular once-a-month "poetry" club meeting where we read our latest efforts to each other.
Why this split? Why do general audiences love rhymes when the "poets" dislike them so much? I believe the answer lies in two directions. First the poetry many people learn in school hasn't changed much since my day and it still centres around rhyme and rhythm. Second, creating or adhering to a rhyme pattern is not as easy for most people as just writing thoughts.
Also people like rules! Yes even in this apparently lawless age; most people like rules. They like to know the boundaries of behaviour and are happiest when working and living within those boundaries. Fee verse makes them feel uncomfortable. Is this piece they're reading a poem or a short story. It's got lots of short lines like a poem but they end in the middle of clauses or sentences, you have to read them like prose. traditional verse is more comfortable for them. It is easier to read (and they can see where the breath breaks are coming as well!).
Who is right the audience or the writer? Well until the audience changes I for one believe in giving them what they want and that is structured rhymes (with strong rhythm). Certainly there is a place for the poetic prose that is labelled free poetry but it should be clearly announced for what it is and that, to me, is not poetry. Just like they would hate punk rock at a folk concert, most audiences don't like free verse at a poetry concert.
So what is the right meaning of poetry in the modern era [ allpoetry.com/Poem/1296401 ] ? Is there a place for rhyme and does it still work [ allpoetry.com/Poem/1296511 ]? and where do I fit in? Poet or not [ allpoetry.com/Poem/1303492 ]?
Let me know!
Jim SJust a few of MY thoughts on the place of rhymes in poetry
People say that rhymes are not necessary, that they take the reader's mind away from the subject, that they are just a quick fix for bad poetry;
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Whilst I tend to agree with the description of free verse in your second paragraph, I am aware that there are some that can do the job as well in the poetic form as Pollock did for the art form.
It is one of the strengths of the medium that it can embrace such diversity even though we differ as to which style should be at the top of the heap.
Thanks for reading my piece and for taking the time to comment. Good luck in your future writing.
Jim S -
Hi. I'm new here and this is my first comment. I actually clicked on you because your name made me smile.
I tend to work in free verse, particularly when I'm trying to just vomit out an image onto paper (or a screen, as the case may be), but I think it's a valuable exercise for any poet to learn to work in a structured format. Or better yet, in a variety of structured formats.
Even if a poet has every intention of writing nothing but free verse, learning to adapt to the stringent restrictions of haiku or the challenging meter of the sonnet is going to carry over into all work. It makes a writer more adept at wordcraft. Learning to use rhyme, rhythm, alliteration, all the things that make structured poetry work: that's going to carry over into poetry that's more than prose with funny line-breaks.
Then again, I am one of those people who believes that the only poetry worth reading is beautiful poetry. I'm one of those cold-hearted people that will come down hard on an emotional poem that wanders and has no real sound to it, and because I tend to see poetry as existing in a gray area between science and art, I might be in the minority.
In any case (I am not writing very coherently), it's heart-warming to see someone still standing by structured work and rhyme. -
Poetry is like the visual arts: always diffic
Rhyming in poetry does not hinder poetry unless the poet does not carefully craft the sound he wishes to convey to his readers. I, personally, think of rhyme as being a playful means of enjoying a literary genre. As for the split in the poetic society of which you describe was a good point you brought up as you got me thinking. Since I am neither an extremist in either sense, having experience in visual arts I can sort of relate that (contemporary art, as it was taught to me in University, which I didn't like) was more like a philosophy of colours, not the meaning that the artist was trying to convey mind you, and that this philosophy of colour and bursh strokes and so on, not the pleasantness of the work vis-a-vis the viewer. Really, there is such a thing as a literary cannon, but who's the artistic canon of the society? It was simply not meant to make sense. But regardless, if someone could bridge the rhyming and non-rhyming groups in a similar manner as the visual arts, then one who likes rhymes would say that, although it isn't what some POETS want, it is "artistically" pleasing to the viewers, who ought to be the ones who define what is poetry and what is not, not the poets themselves. -
You have highlighted one of my problems with some writers on this site. I try to look at the home page or a poem or two from names I don't recognise. Often a quick glance is enough to know that a protracted answer or electronic conversation is going to be very unrewarding and possibly acrimonious. Fortunately there are enough others from whom(?) I can learn.
BTW BTW is a bad habit I have picked up. It is an acronym for By The Way
Thanks for your comments.
Jim S -
First whats btw? .Ok Jim i'm going to add my two penneth,there is much that I read (or endure)on this site that pertains(spag)to be poetry.It seems to me it marches proudly along under the banner of "the emperors new clothes".It is complete tosh to be polite!,I myself prefer poetry that rhymes, although that said , I don't believe good poetry has to rhyme.There are several soulless (spag once more?)gits who I truly believe would be far happier reading a telephone directory(sp?), it seems whatever the subject matter or content this is of no consequence ,they just seem oh so very happy to point out the errors in a write, its as if they haven't read it and stumbled on to this site by mistake, they don't seem to be aware writing comes from the heart.But if you take a look at these "poets" "poems" you will see that they are merely a collection of words thrown down in a random order as if they "wrote"them with the aid of a dice! I expect some one will now try this after reading this!.There are several of these people on my blocked list, not because I'm not open to critque but I truly believe these idiots are simply not qualified to judge , if their own writes are truly shining examples of what poetry is all about then I'm going to snap my biros and kneel at the altar of crap poetry and pray to be forgiven.
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Thank you for your very kind words. I am glad we are in agreement especially with what you say about songs and nursery rhymes.
With regard to Grammer Games I have memories of reading a poem and writing the comment but your poem appears to have been posted in October not June and my comment has vanished. Not to worry; although always honest they are not always noteworthy. I am glad if it helped you in anyway. Actually it wasn't strictly honest. I didn't give up writing daft poetry
I believe that these comments are a good idea as long as we only express honest opinions AND remeber that they are ONLY opinions. The poem's author is the only one who truly knows what is right.
BTW my comment at the beginning of this column was a medical one! I had no pain but neither did I have a voice. I communicated with people by simple signs and writing notes!! Not good for a teacher is it?
Keep on writing.
Jim S -
Thanks for taking the time to read AND write. I'm glad we find common ground in our appreciation of rhymes and the belief that they are ones first (and maybe best) introduction to poetry via nursery rhymes etc.
Keep writing.
Jim S -
What genie said.... plus....this....
Jim,
I agree with you 100%. I personally feel that most here that detest rhyming can't write it. That's not to say they don't appreciate it. The ones who scream the loudest are the ones who I've come to find are not that great at it. Rhyming is as genielassie said, it's musical. It dances off the tongue and when spoken out loud,it sounds like music. It can be as lively as a child's song at play where you can dance on the notes with youthful exuberance. Or it can sound like a breathtaking piece of Mozart and the notes lift and carry you into the heavens. And yet, both bring glorious imagery to the mind. I would like to bring up at this moment that 98% of the music that any of us listen to is rhyming,and that is in all genre. When done well, it is exsquisite...when done badly, it sounds like sheep being slaughtered. Conversely, so does free verse. Both are equally challenging.
When you spoke of your voice I was immediately thrown back to a day when I was trying to find mine. I had never written in this topic before. And well, I do owe you two things. First, an apology, for not telling you sooner. And that comes from the depths of my heart. The second,to thank you.. because of your comment, you helped me not only find mine, but to keep it true. You with one other person. In June, I had written a poem on a topic I'd never tried before. Humor. Was your comment simple? No. In fact, it had quite the opposite effect on me.
"I have not seen a better poem this week. Teaching Grandma Grammar springs to mind as a title. You have certainly taught me some and I'm old enough to be a Grandpa!
If this is your first attempt at humour I'm going to give up. I can't compete. It has rhyme, rhythm, humour and it has STYLE.
TTFN
Jim S" the title became Grammer Games.
I was overwhelmed, and at the time I decided to do nothing. I am so happy I did, I discovered in the end it is MY voice. Is it the best, well that's certainly open for debate. And possibly as time goes by and I become more knowledgeable (with grammar also) I may change it. If I do, I will always keep the original so that I may look back and see growth. I think maybe many of us take offense when certain points of veiw are being exercised mostly, due to the fact that our work is like our child. It is a part of ourselves. I personally am here for growth. I want to become a better poet/writer. I am not that thinned skinned. But I also recognize when to follow my instincts, my voice, and when not to. Because if I listened to every one who ever had a bad thing to say, or to all the suggestions to change what and how I write, I dare say, my work would not be readable.
Recently, I sat with an author. He is also a creative writing professor at a prestigious college in my state, Chang Rae Lee. He stated how he has had and knows students and friends in the literary field, that could disect a poem exsquisitely. That knew the meters, tropes, etc like none other. They understood every nuance of the meter of a poem. Yet, they couldn't write one if their life depended on it. In essence what he encouraged his audience to know was this. Because one man makes a statement. Doesn't make it so. It is art, like life is in the eye of the beholder. It is our voice, we can't please everyone. If we do, then we lose our voice, it is no longer ours. I personally, have an affinity for rhyme and find it more challenging than free verse. So my friend..... I bow before you... and stand calling BRAVO! You keep doing what you're doing. You do it so well...
~Michelle~
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Before I learned my ABC's and 123's, before I learned to tie my shoes or skip a rope, before I learned my shapes and colors or even write my own name I leanred to rhyme! Nursey rhymes... you know, those things that kids sing that sound so adorable? Mother Goose was my first poetry teacher followed by Dr. Suess and a passel of other books written for toddlers.
Why rhymes? Because they hold attention, they are more than words, more than thoughts and more than literary arts; they're musical.
You'd be surprised how many adults connect with the "nursey rhymes" they learned as children when seeking to learn poetry.
This makes sense to me and will likely make sense to most rhymers in general.
s and best wishes... ~genie~
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We all have our preference for various forms from totallt free to the rigidity of a villanelle etc. You have yours, I have mine and if they coincide that's great, if not no sweat.
What I dislike is the person who dismisses the whole category of rhyming poetry without any cogent reason.
Thanks for reading and commenting on this piece.
Jim S -
Hello there
I don't necessarily have a problem with rhymes, I just prefer free verse. I cannot tolerate most form poetry, altho I have tried my hand at it. I like this column AND it didn't even rhyme. I'll be back to peruse some of your other work...
regards and best wishes,
olivia -
Obviously you feel deeply on this subject and I agree with much of what you say.
However I feel that when you write -- It is argued that this renders poetry more accessible and counters the elitism that was perceived in poetry.-- we are not in agreement. Your experiences must be different from mine since I get the definite impression that many of todays poets are using the lack of rhyme as an elitist badge and looking down their noses at the members of our more literate society who are now able to use the rhyme and rhythm with greater facility.
Let's acknowledge that there are different types of equally valid poetry just as there are different types of equally valid music.
Jim S
Edited on Nov 17, 6:22 p.m. because 'poor spelling'. -
Interesdting
There is no doubt that this is a symptom of the alienation between the "public" and "poets".
When society was largely illiterate and particularly in societies with no written tradition, oral expression was extremely important. The use of memorable and meaningful sound in poetry not only supported the meaning of a poem but made it memorable. This was particularly the case with rhyme, which one a pattern is established can lead to an expectation in the audience. The first hearing is enhanced and memory is aided.
However, since those days there has been a trend to the ordinary voice, the conversational. It is argued that this renders poetry more accessible and counters the elitism that was perceived in poetry. Also poetry is less and less an oral form and has branches which tend towards a visual form. Certainly there is more poetry read from the book than experienced through someone giving a reading.
However, the anti-elitism which encompassed the trend away from rhyming poetry also contained a different elitism which valued erudition and special knowledge, in effect new codes which the “public” could not easily penetrate.
This divergence between contemporary poetry and its accessibility to the non-poetry “public” is largely a thing of the past in that the aim of most is to consider the reader. However, the historical split between the poetry establishment and the general public still remains.
How does that affect the current status of rhyme.
It would be wrong to say that no rhyming poetry is being written. I have looked in a couple of modern anthologies to find a significant amount of rhyming poetry present. I helped organise a poetry event recently and of the two guest poets, one tended to rhyming poetry.
Another reason that rhyming poetry is so often disparaged is the effect it has on newcomers to poetry. For some, rhyme is not only important in poetry but it is equal to poetry. If a verse rhymes in an identifiable sequence then the author of such work feels that it is by definition a poem.
This is not so if the poem achieves the rhyme through neglect of the rhythm of the piece, allows the narrative to be diverted, twists the language, twists the pronunciation of words and many other techniques that set rhyme above meaning.
Beginners produce a lot of forced rhyme and wed as they often are to the crutch that rhyme becomes in such situations, they are totally blind to the fact that their poem sounds stilted, weak and infantile.
So if you are part of a poetry group that rejects rhyming poetry, then those members are as guilty of prejudice as an individual who rejects the validity of non-rhyming poetry forms. Writing good rhyming poetry is as hard as writing good non-rhyming poetry, the first has the deceptive crutch of rhyme, the other has the deceptive crutch of freedom from need to rhyme.
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