Up until now, allpoetry has not had an official way to protest a policy you think is unfair. This has caused unnecessary strife, and we are amending it. I apologize that this was not done earlier.
If you need to protest a policy, please see the help page for the latest policy email address.
Along with this 'official protest route', we are no longer allowing protests posts as columns or poems. They are allowed in the bulletin boards, but may be moved to the outside board if they get rowdy.
This change is coming about to protect the poetry loving members of the site. Of late, there has been a nearly constant string of protests by some of our site members. Many of these have been carefully listened to and acted on, but I have not been happy with the amount of site distraction and noise they caused.
I realize some will be frustrated by this, but I feel it is important to help keep us focused on poetry. Community discussion is important, but can distract from our primary purpose. Non-protest, non-poetry posts of course can still be posted as columns. Poems should (obviously) be poems. Poems about protest are fine, just please keep the discussion to the discussion forums.
I and the moderators are interested in keeping this the best poetry site on the web, and we do listen to suggestions and complaints. Please use the official routes before starting a protest. Please give us the benefit of the doubt, and a day or two to respond.
Happy poetry writing!
-KevinSome are reacting negatively to this change, and I'd like to reiterate the fact that discussion can still take place in the bulletin boards. Part of the problem we've had is people post their side of the story, often misrepresenting or outright lying about the actions moderators have taken, and on the bulletin board section we have a better (but still not perfect) way to respond.
This is not limiting what you can do, only where you can do it, and is motivated by a need for allpoetry's focus to be it's majority of poetry lovers, rather than it's minority of users upset with policy.
In any society, those without power will hate those with power. The moderators try very hard, do a good job with sticking to the policy set out, and, in every case I've looked into, or been asked to look into, fair, friendly, and to the point. All bans, especially recent ones, have been checked and were properly given according to policy and our warning-bans schedule.
Up until now, allpoetry has not had an official way to protest a policy you think is unfair. This has caused unnecessary strife, and we are amending it.
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Comments
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I would really like to see catagories for unreqiuted love and lost love added so that those of us wanting to read love poems would not have to meddle through all of these to see love poems. Thanks.
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Ok this is a big concern with me and I hope it is address and changed and I don't get blown off. The site has made it so that if you are younger then 18 then any curse word will come out with bunny. OK BUNNY!!!??? This just dumb and sad. Is that the best way of hiding kids from words that they all ready know on the site? If i say damnit it will be replace with bunny. example "God damnit." IT will be changed to "God bunny." Please tell me who came up with that because I would like to say that you will be laughed at like this...hahahahahaha :-D. That is just so stupid (for lack of a better word) You can come up with something so better then that.
Come up with a different age limit. Turn it down to 14 or 13 because a lagre number of people that curse are in that age group. I have to say this one more time bunny? Come on -
I've had no problems in the past with the moderation here. Admittedly, I was slightly miffed when one of my poems had to be removed (due to a very controversial subject matter) but the process was a pleasant one. I was contacted by a moderator who explained that my poetry had caused offence and was kindly asked to remove it. No judgement, just pure curtesy. Honestly, I was asked so nicely that I didn't think twice before removing the poem immediately.
So, it goes to show that there are some 'allpoetry law enforcers' out there who have tact and courtesy in upholding site rules. I'm not really sure how these ramblings are relevant...
What I meant to say was that although I disagree with banning protests from poetry (after all, poetry IS about a freedom of expression), I won't be sad to see it go from columns. It seems as though every other column is a complaint and yet, most of the actions which are being complained about seem perfectly justified. In my opinion, if people don't like the rules, then why stay? Yes, complain if somebody has removed your poem even though it was fine by the rules, go ahead and complain if you're treated badly, but don't deliberately write something against the rules and then get on your soapbox and complain when you're caught.
And now... time for me to get off MY soapbox.
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Thanks, NOT. I'm not sure how respected I am, but you are right that such things shouldn't matter either way. My poems were written with the understanding that they could be banned under this policy. They were relatively mild in part to demonstrate that this policy disallows poems that could reasonably be expected to cause no offense... even to the readers of Readers Digest.
I do have one poem that was not deleted because "it isn't much of a protest"; meaning in essence that ineffective poetry is more desirable and allowable than that which is effective. -
Well Windover3, therein lies part of the problem. We (the poets at large) don't really KNOW where the limits are. I've seen several protest poems in the last few days that were not censored, and one short sory. But since you are a widely-read and respected writer, your poems get removed. It's not a very fair system. The more I think about it, the more I realize that it's all about Kevin not being able to handle public criticism.
I'm not surpirsed at all that my work got removed, since it was indeed a "protest", and was designed to directly challenge the rule. But yours seemed to be more of personal expression than outright defiance..... and would seem to be exempt from censorship.
I guess nowadays, being a good writer is a bad thing..... unless you are writing about "approved" topics. -
To readers: Please do not be misled into believing that poems are protected (and thus getting yourself banned). Three poems have been deleted for being being protests that I am aware of, two of which were mine. Mine contained no offensive language, they did not name any names, they were not incendiary. They simply registered my disagreement and sorrow with this policy and contained a link to this page.
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what's the policy on pro-rated reimbursement when someone leaves because you've changed the conditions of membership?
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This still sucks.
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But if I get locked in a closet, I'm blaming you!
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LOL. I'll conceed. I too played my part in the hysteria and, at the time, admittedly, quite gladly. In those heated moments of defending what I felt strongly about, I lost track of where I wanted to end up. It's a habit I'm not particularly thrilled with. Changes have been made that are for the better, and changes have been made which have results not yet to be determined. I suppose I can give them a chance to settle in before bearing torches and nooses.
Edited on Jun 15, 11:04 p.m. because ''. -
BL, you are correct...it wasn't YOU who called me a sheep, and this has been going on so long that, yes, I am starting to reply to "you on the other side" as a bunch, and attribute the comments of one to all.
Sloppy thinking...admitted.
But look at how much got changed for y'all in this brief flood of complaining. There is practically NO difference in content between BillyD's "Pump" and Nam's "The Nigger's Day", except that Nam used at least six MORE racial slurs along with his blatant sexual references...but there it still sits, unedited and uncensured. You won...BIG...and now you want to complain because Kevin asked you to please go through regular channels with complaints before splattering them all over the boards.
He didn't even say you CAN'T splatter them all over the boards!...just asked that you take at least a token shot at giving the staff a chance to resolve it before making it a /cause célèbre/!
From this, I see replies above that would lead me (if I bought it) to believe that Kevin's eventual goal is to lock me in a small closet, feed me through a hole the size of a quarter and tell me via speaker what he want's me to write and post.
Reality check? Please, couldn't we get a grip, y'all...and wait and SEE if anyone starts sending muffled "HELP, I'm locked in a closet!" emails? -
Ok. I have an idea for the disputing policies or whatever.
Instead of having everything go to one email address where we do no know what has already been said, why not make an extra page under the help section. Where people can mention things and others can see it, or even have a link to the board you would like us to go to where it is easily seen and accessible by us. That way we would be able to see it easily. Or maybe you can even has a new category for poetry, Protests or something. That way if someone wants to avoid it they can. Don't block our voices from being completely heard, and don't hide them in the depths where we won't even know if you've seen it. These are just some suggestions that might appease both sides. Poetry is about expression. Our feelings on paper. If we dont like something and we write about it poetically then what's the problem. People don't have to read it. It's their problem if they do. I understand where you guys are coming from but you have to see things from our side. Step into our shoes and see what we do. Jesse Jackson once said "Leadership has a harder job to do than just choose sides. It must bring sides together." By pursuing it this way you are (as quite obviously seen) tearing the site apart. One side vs the other. Compromise with both sides. Do a poll maybe like you did with the profanity issue. See what the customers and members like. Listen to the minority also, they have a voice too.
The thing that I am seeing come up and feel very strongly about is the censorship. That's where most of the debate is coming from. You have added options to give us freedom to choose what we do and don't want to see. I agree with you that when things are put up that are bull against a moderator who do more work than we acknowledge, that it should be removed, but first how about giving them a warning. Telling them it is going to be. If it is something small maybe give them a chance to edit it. Don't do it directly unless they refuse. Personal attacks on moderators, against one in particular or something that could potentially be threatening, by all means, do what you will, especially if it leads to im's to the mod that are cussing them out or whatever.
Instead of listening to the majority only, step into the minority's shoes. Listen to both sides of this, try to find a common ground. That's my thoughts. and ideas.... I hope you will consider them and think about them.
I'll also appease you and send this to the email set up for it. Just so I know (hopefully) it is heard. Since you are probably flooded with these silly messages 
~Angel
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the difference meesa is that this has always been an organization with members, rather than a corporation with customers. This policy changes that. In the past, members had the opportunity to organize to exert moral suasion. The change strips members of that power. It means that there are no longer protests, merely appeals. In the past we had the ability to reach other members to gain support, now we can only complain and beg and hope we are heard.
I tend to like and respect the moderators. I tend to have corgial relations with them. Nevertheless, it has been pointed out to me on several occasions that they are human. This was done by moderators to explain that their feelings are sometimes hurt. This is indeed the case, and it is why I have never protested when someone is banned for being abusive. Likewise when a recent member was banned for re-posting something she was specifically told not to.
On the other hand consider both cases relating to Son of the Moon. He had a post on the suicide of hunter thompson which was deleted for excessive profanity. When I heard this and first saw the protest, I took the side of the moderators. I believe in having rules for conduct. Such a hue and cry went up, that he was allowed to repost (actually, it went further and the policy was changed, which I have mixed feelings over). When I read the post, it is clear that the profanities were used in context, the overall message of the piece was life affirming (hence far better in my view than a pro-suicide poem with no profanities), and it was a clearly artistic work that made an impression.
Without the hue and sry (which could not happen under the new rules), that post would have been lost, and the available poetry onthis site poorer. -
while I agree this is neither a UN nor Constitutional issue (and disagree with DP to that extent), it is most certainly an issue of censorship, and the type of censorship which is most applicable to ideals expressed in the constitution, i.e., the right to dissent and discuss the rules under which one lives. You suggest that we are only interested in our own rights and not those of others. I will kindly disagree.
I am concerned here with everyone's rights. The point is that no matter who is upset, in future they will have no recourse by which to make an appeal to the general membership. Not only will ap be a corporation in the legal sense, but it will be run by corporate governance, top down. If you are upset by curse words, you will no longer be able to advertise that fact to the general membership. Indeed, membership will be a lot less meaningful. You are not so much a member as a client. Pay your fee, get your service. Like it? Stay. Don't? Leave.
And, of course, while you like it, this is fine. But once you have invested in forming friendships, making commitments, posting your work, etc. Leaving becomes an unattractive option.
Again, if you are happy with ap, why promote the change? If you are unhappy, then why not leave yourself? This site grew and took on members because of it's freedoms that Kevin kindely put at people's disposal. Now it is less manageable due to that very success. But I still have heard no description of any way in which these protest posts impinge on the rights of individual members. -
I didn't call anyone sheep. Now you're just trying to pick a fight
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If this is a business, what happened to "the customer is always right"? lol.
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I agree with this whole heartedly. Although I am not aware of the situations or protests as I try to stay out of them I have to say that every business has a protocol to follow if you want to file complaints with them. They usually have cmplaint departments where these issues are handled or they have a complaint box. But I don't think any business would appreciate someone standing in the middle of the crowd voicing their complaints. I would think it would be bad for business so in a business sense it is a good strategy to move complaints to an appropriate place. I don't really understand the big deal other than as write's I think we honor the Freedom of Speech more than others,but I really don't think this infringing upon that because we still have a place to voice our opinions only in an appropriate channel.
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"I wasn't above it until you started cursing at me,"
"Bullshit. Naughty words are now allowed because we complained enough"
Clear enough. YOU want to be allowed to swear. I still have to be "nice".
You don't even see your own hypocrisy, do you?
Go tell it to Martooni...you can bleat at each other about how mean all the "sheep" are to all of you who WANT to be able to use insulting language.
As for those of us who think using language that some people find hurtful is not the nicest idea...gee, what assholes we are! (Pick a lane and drive in it, huh? You don't KNOW what you want...you just want to complain.) -
Well... yeah. Duh. I'm an activist with nothing to be active about. My world is over. I shall now endeavor to write a poem about it, and include the words "cut" and "bleed" repeatedly.
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Incidentally...(just as a demonstration of that staggering level of literacy) exactly what is it that got taken away? Kevin clearly said you could still discuss anything on the boards, he just asked (pretty damn politely, considering,) that we first bring our complaints to HIM, and give him a chance to address it, before running to the boards crying about how we're being ignored.
(Of course, considering the content of half the posts I've seen from you, this would deprive you of your favorite topic, so no wonder you object. Comes back to the same thing...all you REALLY WANT is to bitch. Take away what you bitch about and you bitch about THAT!)
Edited on Jun 15, 4:11 p.m. because ''. -
I for one, am going to be fading away. I've had about all I am interested in tolerating.
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I wasn't above it until you started cursing at me, and I returned the favor. Keep it civil, and I'm all ears. Start throwing "bitching" this and "bitching" that all over the place and I could care less what you have to say.
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So now you're even above having a dissenting opinion VOICED?
gee...imagine how well that would work on you! It'd take a sock and duct tape! -
Then take a nap. You apparently need one.
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Bullshit. Naughty words are now allowed because we complained enough, and I appreciate that, but what does he do... ban something else. Fucking ridiculous.
And funny how you are responding to my questions to KEVIN!! Perhaps you'd have a right to be bothered if my original address was to you, which it is not. If you don't like it, read .... something.... else. -
and it does not "violate a site"...Look at the bottom of any page! "Our communities of sharing: Allpoetry, Storywrite, Allphilosophy, Oldpoetry"
They're all linked...you going to start bitching about THAT now? You so in need of a gripe you want to rearrange the entire infrastructure...just for something to bitch about?
god, you make me tired! -
"So, because I'm in the minority, that makes me unimportant? I'll tell that to all the black people and Asians of the world as well. Sheesh."
I said that...where?
Sheeeash, yourself! You (ALL of you) have been keeping this shit going for four days now...did any of you whiners stop to notice that the policies had changed to allow the freedom of expression you've been bitching about for all this time?
Just like Martooni! You can't even shut up long enough to listen when being told that YOU WON!
(spoiled brats...all you want to do is mouth off...doesn't really even NEED a cause! You win and you keep on bitching!) -
"As far as the "VERY small minority" thing goes, I got that information directly from KEV when we were discussing creation of the "outside" forum."
This was exactly my point. You claim to draw a valid conclusion about the entire membership based solely on the numbers of those who post in the forums, even while admitting that this number is statistically not significant next to the full membership.
You read me backward...and your argument only reinforces mine. -
Well, that still violates a site that is supposedly devoted to POETRY. If I wanted to read a story, I'd access a story site directly.
So, because I'm in the minority, that makes me unimportant? I'll tell that to all the black people and Asians of the world as well. Sheesh. -
"...I did conduct a study where I counted the postings on KEV's Column, my column, and the forums..... and tossed out any duplicates so that each poet got counted only once."
And this number represented what percentage of the membership?
I stronly doubt that it is a statistically large enough number to be called a 'representative sampling'.
You're taking a count of how many people make noise, and ignoring that fact that most people who are content with any status quo are silent.
ERGO...your stats don't mean anything in terms of the overall membership. -
The sites are interlinked. If you happen to have a story posted and you feature it, it shows up in AP's feature box, sure...but it is still posted in Storywrite. Click on it and you are taken to that site. In other words...click on a story and you ARE in StoryWrite. Try it...just look at the top of the page when you get there and you'll see, you AREN'T in AllPoetry anymore.
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But while ON AllPoetry, I may click a featured item and, lo and behold, get a story, regardless of wether or not I am on StoryWrite.
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yes I did conduct a study where I counted the postings on KEV's Column, my column, and the forums..... and tossed out any duplicates so that each poet got counted only once. The results ARE posted in the forums, and have been shared with KEV in hard numbers that are as correct as I could make them.
As far as the "VERY small minority" thing goes, I got that information directly from KEV when we were discussing creation of the "outside" forum. And if you don't think it to be true, go count the number of active participants and divide it by the number of active posts in the general AP population. OR just ask Kev.... we'd agree on that one.
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Hmmmmm...Tillman, did you take a poll? What were the results? The Stats? How many members responded?
I don't think you know that there's a majority...and I don't think Kevind does either. All I've seen is that about fifteen to twnety of you are REALLY NOISY about how your rights over-ride the rights of anyone else.
Noise does not equal numbers...and for you to claim "a majority" in one post and then in the next state "you know as well as I do the the "forums" are read by a VERY small minority of the general population here" is pretty sloppy thinking. -
You might notice that, if you select "story" when adding a work to the site, it doesn't end up in AllPoetry, Birdlady...it ends up in StoryWrite.
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Geeeeeeze
Silent Angel (and all the rest of the "denying us freedom of expression" crowd)...
Get a GRIP! The UN resolutions don't have any more to do with this than the constitution ever did. This is not and has never been an issue of censorship...it's merely an issue of discretion. Your stance is just the same as if you were telling the manager of a bar that he had no right to ask you NOT to incite racial violence in his establishment just because it's open mic night!
Laws, Rights, Privelege notwithstanding, it has always been and will always BE the right and responsibility of the owner of any website to determine what he deems acceptable material for that site, and NO ONE...no document, no government and no DEITY has ever granted anyone the "right" to over-rule him. This is not a soapbox in a public park...it's a privately owned and operated website.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS CONCEPT THAT IS SO HARD FOR YOU PEOPLE TO GRASP? FIVE YEAR OLDS CAN GRASP IT IN KINDERGARTEN THAT THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO SOME PLACES THAT YOU CAN'T DO IN OTHERS, AND PARTICULARLY THINGS YOU CAN DO AT YOUR HOME THAT YOU CANNOT NECESSARILY DO IN SOMEONE ELSE'S!
Christ, I'm getting so sick of people who think THEIR rights entitle them to trample all over anyone else's! GROW UP! -
You just said:
"Less people will read it, but that is also my point - this is a poetry site, not a protest site. I want less people to read it!"
So.... let me get this straight: You don't WANT your poor policies discussed where the General Public can see and understand them? Hhhmmmmmmm....... I understand now. This IS about power after all, and not about poetry -
Despite some of the hyperbole, I think both sides recognize that the issue here is how many read it, and hence the work load it generates for you and the moderators. But, Kevin, you know as well as I do that the forums are not simply a matter of degree (90% of people seeing versus 95%). You are suggesting the equivalent of taking things which can now be read in any newspaper, and relegating them to be published in the Sacramento Bee. Sure, those who really want to go out and find what was said can do so, but there is no way to advertise and air a grievance.
As per your author's comment, here is the thing: I don't repeat do not hate those with power. Part of the reason I don't is that I currently feel like I have some power. If I feel something aggregious is occurring, I can address the membership. Strip that power from me, reduce me to where I not only have no ability to make or break bans, but do not even have the ability to express my displeasure, and we'll see how long that lasts.
I've only been here a year, but I've purchased a membership as well as memberships for others. I try to be a contributing member to the community. I even try to be a moderating voice at times. When I have had a concern about a ban, my responce was to send you an im, and my concern was addressed and I went away happy. There has only been one time when I took a particularly active role in a protest. I believe I was right to do so, I believe my participation had a small effect on the outcome, and I believe that that outcome may have been the best possible given the situation.
Don't deprive me of that voice. Please. -
LOL..... do you actually READ the forums? For the most part THEY are the mob. Most of the folks I know on AP won't post anything there because they fear the trolls will tear them apart. Serious discussions in there are trivialized, and most of the comments center more on personalities than issues.
Of all the places in AP for policy discussions, that is the very worst place. -
Less people will read it, but that is also my point - this is a poetry site, not a protest site. I want less people to read it!
I listen to rationalization much better than to mobs. It's much more important how you say something, than how many people say something. People+friends who are interested in the manner will still check the forums -
But Kevin... you know as well as I do the the "forums" are read by a VERY small minority of the general population here, and thus any discussions are automatically limited to a very small audience. In the past, we have tried that route and you ignored it. Please think back to the "FAV's" list protest. It was only after many, many comments on a posted protest piece did you decide to change your mind and allow us to "opt-out" Limiting discussion to the forums is simply a way to prevent their gaining any real support.
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A voice is never wasted. I definately care, but have to have my vision of what is best for the site in mind. I recently updated the author notes above, please read it.
What you can post is not being limited, merely where it can be posted. I think keeping it all in one place (a new board has just been created at noiq's suggestion also), will make it easier to get both sides of the story.
I disagree with your tally of who is in favor or against this, but that's a moot point.
I'm offended you would think I'm out for power. That's not how communities are formed, and this one would have long ago collapsed it if were true. Give me (and the moderators) a better benefit of the doubt. -
You guys are wasting your voice. Kevin KNOWS all o fthe above, AND he knows that the majority of AP members are opposed to his banning of protests....... but he doesn't care. This is not about our "rights" or "freedom of speech"..... it's about whether or not Kevin is able to tolerate those who disagree with him. It's a power thing, pure and simple.
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I'm wondering... if the focus should be on poetry, as is your case here in banning the use of columns as a form of protest, then why are stories allowed? Stories are not poetry. And why are any columns at all allowed. Columns are not poetry either. You contradict yourself, dear sir, by saying that non-poetry posts may be placed in columns and also say this site is focused on POETRY and using that as your reasoning for banning protesting columns, which is a non-poetry post. It's hypocritical.
And I think the reason I fight so hard about this, is because this is a community I've enjoyed for almost a year. That is, until I've realized that the police need to be policed. -
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Just for the moderators to know and see. What is going on with this site is leading to quite a few problems, on an international basis. Some information I have gathered for you.
Its in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It was adopted by the United Nations in 1948. In its preamble it says... "Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people"
Again from the Universal Declaration
Article 18.
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."
Article 19
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
And for the protestors writing the most beautiful poems I've seen.
Article 20
"(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association."
Writing poetry is peaceful. Once it goes to using vulgar words or personal attacks that would be different, that would take it too far.
AP is denying our Universal Rights by denying us freedom of expression and in a way freedom of conscience. For how can we let it be known how we feel or what our views (conscience) are if we are not allowed to express them. Sure we can think it, but heaven forbid we say anything.
It is no longer going to be based only on the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights, particularly Amendment 1. This goes a step further. This gives the same rights to UN participating countries, which as far as I know, all countries that poets are on here from are UN participating countries.
Think about it
~Angel
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Chuck,
In fairness if calling names is something that should result in banning, how is it a mods daughter can call someone a lying bastard and a fucker and not be banned? Hmmmm....may wanna consider that. -
Bravo D P Robertson!!
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If there were to be a restriction on what poetry, or what I could write about, I would have to say that I would move elsewhere. Freedom of speech is what all of the free countries of the world pride themselves in.
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I applaud DP's comment and agree with it.
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Well, written and I agree, as someone who is a friend of a poet who was banned.
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Was this comment for me? Apologizing in advance if not, but I figured the chickenshit was a reference to my corral analogy? You applauded it too, though, so I'm uncertain. Seriously apologetic if I'm just wound to tight tonight.
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so, it almost seems like you want a site of context poetry...almost as if you want poetry that has to follow some form created by a flawed species...still an awesome site.
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to D P Robertson:
Couldn't agree with you more. Nice to see those who know what to say and how to say it intelligently
~Angel
Edited on Jun 14, 11:45 p.m. because 'forgot something'. -
Stop This Nonesense
Is All Poetry a selective poetry reading site or does it work best as an open forum where ideas, no matter how 'out there' are discussed without fear or favor in an enviroment where the written word is more important than social constraint.
All poetry is a workshop that allows all writers the opportunity to hone their skills and receive feedback. As I have stated many times before the real enemy to such an ideal and really the only enemy is censorship. For in limiting what words can be used is to limit the artist. For the majority or politically empowered to dictate what is acceptable and what is not is to strike at the very heart of creativity. There are writers on this site who are constantly challenging the mores and attempting to place the boundary of acceptability further and further away from the centre. There are those who would never dare to place a toe away from all that is safe, comfortable and familiar. The problem only really arises, as it arises in the wider community, when the unadventurous believe themselves to be the arbiters of good taste and place pressure on this site to delete what in their eyes is obscenity. This in itself is obscene. It is outrageous that anyone, in an open forum can dictate how someone else can express themselves. It flies in the face of first amendment principles on which all liberty rests.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
And in the true spirit of the Bill of Rights- that's all swell and good until some bastard doesn't like how you express yourself and invokes the –
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed...and shoots you.
Unless a small and vocal minority wishes to appear more like right wing fascists, who seem far more interested in being control freaks than writers, I am seriously wondering how this issue keeps popping up.
I have some very conservative people who I not only have on my favourite's list but I am on theirs. I thought the idea of using the word 'bunny' instead of 'fuck' was one of the silliest bunnying ideas that has ever come down the pipe. Samplette now tells me that she is really enjoying some of my work that she would not otherwise read. Has it made me modify my writing- not one whit. But this issue is different. The broader argument is the fact that writers cannot protest, cannot express themselves in tones of righteous rage without being being censored or worse, fear of being censored.
There is a fundamental flaw in Allpoetry's ideals. Like all things that start off pure and for the best intentions, they start to evolve and more often than not, subverted by those who scream the loudest and longest. By surrounding oneself with similar thought you will always have the same outcomes. By being presented with the same situation, if you have conservatives you will always get the same outcome. When the police become more important to a society than the liberties it is trying to uphold, then it becomes a police state. When the moderators of allpoetry become more obsessed with how something is written then quite frankly art, imagination, creativity and individuality are the ultimate losers.
Everyone at allpoetry should be able to express a point of view anyway their little hearts desire. The very moment a writer is wondering whether or not something is acceptable or not is the moment when the writer has lost who they really are. The decision is not one of writing but one of reading. If the reader does not feel comfortable with what they are reading- they will not read it. If the reader if offended, they will not read it. If the reader does not like they writer's style, they will not return. It is the very essence of the first amendment and is at the very heart of individual choice and freedom.
It was once noted that the only difference between a dirty joke and a joke that has dirty words in it is whether or not you laughed. There are a few moderators on this site who are taking themselves a little too seriously and are far more interested in policing that creativity. Rather than celebrating diversity there is a focus on 'correctness'. In a society that is diverse, correctness is one of the most subjective of things that is impossible to dictate. Yet that is what is happening and continues to happen in a nurturing artist's community.
It saddens me that such a wonderful site as allpoetry is blighted by conservatism. It strangles the most fragile writers on this site who are the ones that will more often than not produce the most surprising, entertaining and broadening works of art. There are some great conservative writers of this site whose own writing is improved greatly by the influence the more radical writers have on them. By being obsessed with obscenity and blasphemy and the battering ram passion of some pieces, is to miss the point. You as a reader have the right not to read. You as a writer have a choice not to write. But me as an individual wants that right to me mine and not dicated to me by people who have no business interfering with the art of others.
I received this IM from a very conservative Haikumonk- I disagree with his censorship
“no... I already reviewed it.... site complaints written into poetry or columns are no longer acceptable. We have a channel for complaints and site grievance that should be followed by all members. There is a post regarding that from Kevin syndicated on the front page of allpoetry. Such complaints can also be posted in the boards..... but members are tired of clicking to simply find some one complaining about a site that most folks really love and enjoy. They want to read poetry.... not grumbling cuz some member can't say something.... they want to read a column that makes them think.... not about someone that is unhappy with allpoetry... but something about poetry or life... or a perspective that isn't just a bitch session about they didn't get their way at allpoetry... and this obviously is not the tone of your column.... but similar in intent. You wrote it very well.... but it is a board post in nature and not one of a poem or column. If you have further questions... or if you have some suggestions, feel free to write me at tankamonk@aol.com with them and I will look them over with kevin..... thanks..... by the way... my tone in this converstation is friendly and light... in case my words in writing don't reflect that....”
AND I CERTAINLY DISAGREE WITH BILLYD BEING BANNED BY THE MODERATORS.
This is called Allpoetry and poetry has a very broad definition in its topic, structures and its level of passion. The beauty of allpoetry is that it’s a community that provides feedback to the writer and allows writers to develop a site within a site. Absolutely no one is complaining about that concept. No one is saying that being part of a broader writing community that draws its members and diversity from the four corners of the globe is a bad thing- it is in fact the fuel that ignites our imaginations and creates the many literary gems that sprinkle throughout the this site like poetic gold dust. The best writing on this site is as good a writing as you will read- anywhere. Because of the way I write, people can, and have commented on pieces only minutes after it has been conceived, hammered out and placed on Allpoetry. No writer could complain about that type of feedback.
But that is not the issue that has seen a raft of unnecessary banning that have included Oneluckygirl, Horus8, myself and more recently, Deseree Darkk and Billy Davidson. Many more have been threatened and more again have had comments and pieces removed or modified at moderators requests.
The latest is not being able to write a critical column as this and post it under your own site name. Rather, to be placed on a out of the way notice board. Quite frankly that is bullshit that is designed to keep adverse comment about the moderators away from the front pages. If this site is to ever reach the heights of literary diversity that it both could and should then the site owner and the moderators who police this site need to embrace ‘allcomment’ and realize that in its passion lies some of the most interesting writing.
When people log on to D P Robertson, I could not imagine them being too much different to myself when I log onto the site of any number of writers- I am interested in what they have written in whatever form it comes in. If we were truly restricted to poetry we would not have the option to post columns and stories etc. This is a writing site that has feedback facilities. It is a vain hope to believe that passionate writers, when they see injustices done, no matter where it occurs would simply turn a blind eye and churn out a poem about the beauty of flowers. It is highly unlikely that when you censor writers, tamper with their words, push their pieces and their thoughts away from their site name, scold them for righteous anger when they react to thin skinned pettiness of moderators and exile them from Allpoetry.com when at the heart of it is a clash of ideals and protocol usually steeped in conservative, middle class white values that is more concerned with policing than nurturing diversity, you are going to receive a moderate reply. More likely it works like Greek Fire and the more you try and put it out the wilder the flames rise from the anger it provokes. If you don’t wish the issue of censorship to raise its ugly mush every second week, stop censoring writers. If you don’t want them to react to moderators, don’t provoke them. No one is attempting to destroy or even subvert this site. No one.
However to simply not understand that some of the very best works on Allpoetry.com is a result of rage and by provoking those writers who pen their poems this way, those very same people cannot be shunted off to the shadows at the behest of who many perceive is the actions of conservative, petty moderators. This is a writing site. For it to produce the works that stand up against anything else either on the net or in bookshops, writers have to be encouraged without this politicking and site rules that run counter to that notion.
Some writers will never extend the boundaries, will never make waves and will never support other writers in trouble with moderators. That is human nature. But at the end of the day, after you have read what is on this site, whether a writer is critical of a moderator, or a moderator, in their self-importance abuses a writer matters little. When it is all boiled down, this is an issue of censorship and in the spirit of free speech, all writers should be able to express themselves freely and in a fashion they want to express themselves in and have that expressed on their own part of this site.
No writer wishes to be censored. Not Kevin, not the moderators, not any writer who either produces works or comments on work. That is what artistic freedom is and for the most part this site provides it better that any writing community in the world. Moderators more interested in sanctioning writers for minor infractions and outbursts than in the notion of artistic freedom need to have a close look at their priorities and their understanding of artists. When you are behaving more like Uncle Tom than Shakespeare, allpoetry is the ultimate loser.
Lift the ban on BillyD as it was both provoked and unfair.
This is an writer’s community and many writers would appreciate some moderators behaving more like artists than miltia.
David Peter Robertson
PS As for the ruling to ban these type of columns from being posted under your own site, I repeat, people come to D P Robertson to read my words in whatever form they come in. My readership has been built up from a large diversity of works that include poems, short stories and columns. If I have something to say, as a nurturer of artistic talent, rather than being seen a censoring my words, why would you ever want to prevent me from expressing myself.
I never want to think that all writers on this site are equal but some are more equal than others.
By the way
A quick story before I go that may help you- some of the largest and most contentious industries in America, including the government a major, but very silent supporters of public radio stations and some outrageously left wing internet sites. They invite comment that is so diametrically opposed to their own as you would wonder why they set up channels for such vehement criticism. Keeping your friends close and your enemies closer you will learn more and in among all that ensuing chaff you will find some very constructive gems that will be of genuine benefit to everybody at Allpoetry. This is a unique site where a poverty stricken individual as myself who kept his thoughts on scraps of paper in a shoebox can be heard and have feedback. But what you are doing is very close to throwing the baby out with the bath water. Lighten up, understanding that there is always going to be rough edges and there is always going to be those who complain. The fact is that too many of the moderators are taking themselves way too seriously and losing focus because of it. Imagine having to deal with artists who come across as mad as a cut snake- who could have guessed some writers are a little uneven in their moods? By hemming writers in and dictating so rigidly what they can’t do will only provoke an avalanche of ill will. By allowing more freedom, much of this will go away. One is the use of columns- for starters most have a concentration span of a gnat and are very unlikely to read it anyway. The half dozen who do will agree or disagree and everybody is happy- especially the writer. And it all blows away and we get on with writing poems about suicide to cheer ourselves up.
Edited on Jun 14, 10:03 p.m. because ''. -
Carry On, carry on, carry on..and on and on! Why dont all the protesters in the world complain bitterly about this nonsense? lol. Because they would complain if you change ANYTHING! Give us a break here! Kevin isn't trying to stifle you he is attempting to clean up the site. Calling names just shows your complete lack of self control. Give them hell Kevin! Force them to wear pink and purple when composing! lol.
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Final thought, perhaps it would be better if there were simply a disclaimer " the opinions of the poets do not necessarilly reflect those of the site's management." Let people read what they enjoy and refrain from reading the poetry that offends them. I look forward to a forum that embraces free speech and uncensored poetry: raw, truthful, good, bad, ugly,spiritual, political, controversial, precious ...
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Bezoar, one question, what about the poetry about issues? It is still poetry, therefore, it should be allowed, regardless. Whether or not you want to read it is up to you the reader. How else are people to be heard, how else will you see other peoples thoughts or feelings on things. There have been people on this site that have been banned for the stupidest reasons, and otehrs that have been banned rightfully so. There are others that are favored and just get a slap on the hand while others fall victim to their words or actions. I understand where you are coming from, but poetry is about thoughts and self-expression... How can you do this if you are being censored? In which case, how can you post any poetry on here to get critiqued and improve and be known if you can't put that down for others to see because a group of people are censoring the words you can and cannot say? Just some food for thought.
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aaahhh sweet debating.
gotta love people arguing.
really peoplez, this is about poetry.
poetry is expression
let peoplz express themselves, it's not everyone *has* to read it
just warn peoplz about and profanity in it, don't stifle it!!
what peoplz write is their choice, just like choosing to read it is another's choice. i'll decide whenther i want to read it or not, just give me a heads up if theres somethin in it that is profane!!!
sure i'm a new member, and i might be young, but i know what i want and feel. i want to know what others feel, i want to read what they write so i can find out. don't stifle it, i want to see what others have to say. i believe it's called the right to an opinion.
nothin more to say........
instead of being ristrictive, just wrn people that the poem or whatever has profanity (i'm using that loosly), let the people decide if they wanna read it or not.
Edited on Jun 14, 7:52 p.m. because 'felt like it'. -
AMEN.....Thank you so much for cleaning up a bit. As for those who use the site more as a social arena than a place to write POETRY, they should move on to a place outside for discussion on their dramatic issues. This is the best site for posting poetry and getting feedback, and as a serious member, I'd like to keep it that way.
Thanks Kevin and the mods for dealing with issues diplomatically and without (ahem.) name calling.
Jenna -
Might I point out what this site is starting to become in recent months.
www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/06/07/china.internet.reut/index.html
www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/06/14/china.microsoft.ap/index.html
Seeing as I've read this today and heard it a couple days ago. When I read this policy it rang a bell.
Do as you wish. You will lose a lot of paying customers. There are always other sites for us to go to. I feel as though this site is going down because this was not thought of in the beginning. One of the steps in a future success is to think about all problems that may come up. Apparently this was not thought of as carefully as it should have ultimately been for a worldwide poetry site of 'free speech'.
Good luck with this. But just know voices will be heard, poets on this site will find a way. Regardless of what you do. That's the way society works. You make a rule. It will be broken.
~Angel
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this all smells of chickenshit to me
shall i get haikumonk to get your ten foot pole before a moderator deletes it?
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Protests should be Public. What would be the point otherwise?
"site distraction and noise" = holding a mirror to your decisions and exercising freedom to communicate with others about these decisions.
You don't give a damn about the poetry or being focused on the poetry. THAT was what we're upset about- that Poetry is being censored and then opinions about censorship are being censored. You give a damn about things running smoothly for your business.
What kind of poetry does not shake you up? I want more protest poetry I want to think. I want to see how others think. That's the whole point.
Protest poetry is not allowed??? Where would we be if we weren't allowed to protest with the written word? Don't protest on your site anywhere else but here (where you can see it right away and it can be hidden upon your call). Shut our voices. COWARD !
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I wonder if this will even be read.
This is disgusting- corralling dissension, as if "negative" opinions were like wild animals that aught to be fenced in so you can't tell one intelligent pig from , pissy braindead chickens - all opinions will get lost here and you know it. Comment after comment of drivel and the scary ones- the opinions that aught to be heard will sit like diamonds underneath layers of rock- genius move, really! My god man change the name of ALLPoetry to "You can only say this.com" I am appalled that this mindset of yours exists- but as it's your right to have a paid site ran your way, it is also my right to leave and pursue actual poetry. Censoring a word is much more dangerous than any word could be. Also, all words mean a myriad of things in context. One shouldn't claim a false rape but the word "rape" should not be mummed so as not to concern or offend. I hope you come to your senses or lose a lot of business. This is a senseless situation that goes in complete opposition of what poetry is with it's beautiful and ugly truths- with it's poets (the ones righteously striving to strike a nerve unabashadly using all of language (to change a mind to change a world) . A word will never lose it's power until minds change. Minds will never change as long as youre reinforcing prejudices through censorship ( a word should not be feared- loss of human rights should be). You are ripping tools out of honest people's hands because you don't like the color of it. Because others have used it harmfully. Champions are not allowed to give new meaning, make a point or simply have the basic rights as free humans to say anything at all. Poets here, apparently are not allowed to voice opinionated poetry if it's against your opinions. That's cowardly.
You actually say you will delete opinions that stir too much trouble (for YOU) that's fine- but don't call this ALLpoetry- or a poetry site at all. Basically the only voices left will be those that wet your metaphorical penis.
I think this about personal pettiness and fear. I think you are trying not to lose your business by banning those who call attention to your unjust, anti-poetic, and purely self serving decisions. Or "offend" you and whichever P.C. persons it is whose offense matters to you. I'm offended by this whole ordeal. Will you ban yourself now? Of course not.
You are afraid and that's sad. You are afraid of poetry. You are afraid of offending a majority that aught not be a majority. And you are freaked by the people smart enough to take a stand against it. The world needs truth. It does not need to stagnate in dated ideology based in bigotry. Hushed opinions are either timebombs or the breeding ground for sheepish folk more concerned about offending someones sensitive sensibilities than challenging perversion at the root of it. I do not like what you have done/said, but you have the right to have done/said it. I wish you afforded poets the same "courtesy."
There is no reason for poets to be on this site anymore. I sincerely hope things change. Have a good day. -
just leave it alone i mean its not hurting anybody. its what the poets feel so just leave it
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well this is a good idea nice job and well good idea
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It's not a matter of censoring our opinions, it's just moving them to the apropriate place. I'm not quite sure why it makes a difference where you post it, it's still your opinion and it is still being read by those who need to see it. The only difference is there will be fewer annoyed poets finding arguments to join instead of art,
ZIGGY -
I haven't been here in a while and am not sure what the protests are about, but I agree with Rebeka...if you don't like the site policies, get off the site. AP IS like a newspaper, and so you get final say, Kevin. Amritha
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Dear Kevin,
Hurrah!! Well done, if overdue.
FOR GOD'S SAKE EVERYONE! THIS IS THE BEST POETRY SITE ON THE INTERNET!! If you want to pick holes in it, by all means do so through the proper channels and let the rest of us get on with our POETRY!!
Thankyou Kevin and Mods. Happy writing everyone!
Regards and love, Hugh Wyles.
Edited on Jun 14, 4:37 p.m. because ''. -
I would support that.
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at least two individuals have had "poems" removed from being listed as poems. Apparently this occurred because they were protesting a member's being banned. I do not know that this is the case as no one is allowed to quote from communications sent by moderators. If the argument is that they are not "poems" then we have a whole host of issues to confront. The statement above does not indicate that rhyming while you complain will make protests palatable.
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Kevin does own the servers... and he can set policy. I am trying to discourage this before it becomes policy, as I believe it is detrimental. In particular, this site is different from a newspaper, as Kevin sells memberships. It is a "private association" and as such I believe it is in the interests of the community to allow poems which protest site policy.
I have never raised the freedom of speech bug beaar before, but I have had moderators tell me that expressions of racism, sexism, and even philosophical defenses of pedophilia are protected by freedom of speech. In point of fact they aren't on a site which is a private association (like the boy scouts, we could ban homosexuals). However, the principle of freedom of speech was intended to allow members of a society to have a say in how it is ruled. As such, this policy change is an impingement of those freedoms far beyond any of the previous mentioned cases. Racism offends people, but it's lack of expression does not change how we are governed.
The new channel to allow protests directly is a good one. It might even defuse some of these public protests. However, to change site policy which now declares no topic off limits to one in which every topic may be discussed except for the rules under which we are asked to operate is by the absolute literal definition of the term "oppressive". -
Oh now see that is really juvenille! What you just did backs up the rationale in not being allowed to use the word.
Come on, Dez can and will take up for herself when she returns believe me. I was banned for 3 days for doing what the new policy now allows us to do. I knew it was against the rules and did it anyway. Sometimes we do what we to to stand on princials, but to throw the word around senselessly makes me agree that it should not be used. You just won their case for them, and I was one fighting for us to use words freely in an intelligent context. Grow the hell up!
Renee
Edited on Jun 14, 3:27 p.m. because 'Grow up KID!'. -
Why can't you just let it be? The admin getting involved just irritates open wounds. The more the admin gets involved, the more irritated the wounds become. Things DO die off eventually.
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what a load. we love poetry just as much as the 'love and light' fuckers that defile this site. their shitty poems distract me more than anything else.
oh, and by the way, DESIREE DARKK SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BANNED.
and, by the way again, nigger.
Edited on Jun 14, 3:13 p.m. because 'nigger nigger nigger'. -
Thats great.. those who support the site policy call those against it childish and should get off the site and those who are against it call this policy stifling.. so much for a poetry "community."
Personally I would argue for a "protest" option for protest poems etc. Posts on the message board are very rarely taken serious. Not an easy situation or an easy decision, I reserve my judgement to how this works in practice. -
Ok people...I still don't understand. If I want to question a policy...where do I post it, so anyone interested can take part
in it. After reading Rebeka's comment...I find that she still must be lost in the woods...for even newspapers allow opinions
that can be shared by everyone... Maybe we need an opinion section that anyone can check out and leave comments -
Impressive... they're all nice and stirred up. I don't see a problem with the policy, but then I haven't been particularly active lately and don't exactly know what's going on. It seems to me you're giving them a place to do what they want(protest), just not where they want. I dunno. The site is for poetry though, and if there is a complaint to be made, should it not be stated, heard, and considered through a specific channel for said complaints? Sounds logical to me.
Edited on Jun 14, 1:00 p.m. because ''. -
i say if you don't like the site policy, get off the site.
if you owned a newspaper, you would have final decision as to what content was published in your paper (that position is also called 'Editor in Chief')...becasue you OWN the paper. Kevin is the site owner here, is he not? just because you buy a membership does not give you free reign to put slams about the site admin out...how rediculous to assume that. would a newspaper publisher allow an advertiser to buy a full page ad and call the owners wife a whore? if he did, i would think money would be the motivation, not news. the same with this poetry site...kevin seems to desire poetry be posted, not trash protests, in ANY society there needs to be some form of limits. freedom of speech is one thing, but when those that scream and yell just becasue they don't like to follow rules, i say go find another playground...or better yet, grow up. -
Kevin, with all respect that I can give at this point, if your mods take a protest written under column and move it to the outside board it breaks one of your own rules...
Posting someone else’s work as a poem, story or article, or on the boards even if you give credit,is not allowed. There are copyright problems associated with this. Reprinting or sharing of personal messages in the form of IMs sent through the site is forbidden. IMs are considered confidential and are not to be shared without the author's permission. Any message sent to a member from moderators is not to be reprinted or shared with others. (See section on “Copyright Issues” for clarification of this.)
I ask that you re-think this. -
smeg
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A way to protest..hm..now if you do it this way how are other people with the same complaint going to get it through?It is a waste of time on your part , the censorship is the main thing, moderaters delete things just because they can, if somebody even says 'fuck' once they instantly move it to the adult catagery...but since its now viewable by 15year olds its a little bit better.ah..I'm done its too much to type.
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Well... . the Censorship of Protests has begun. AnnD just removed my posting, and placed it in the Forums against my will. This is a sad day for AP for sure.
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I have to say that in the year plus I have been here I personally seen and gone through a lot of wrong doings. A mod deleted a Michaelangelo image calling it "pornographic" then told me to change my morals and write in a manner which would not require such images. This same mod defended a person that said five year olds are "sexy", and I need to change my morals? I saw that Kevin allowed 15 year olds to view adult content. So now a 15 year old can read gore, and sexual content with "bunny" instead of well spose I cannot say it huh? I saw him allow one person write defamatory writes under an alias about groups of people on AP because it was done in a joking manner, and delete similar posts. A greeter lied to all of AP, and male members of her age and no action. His mods abused power by reading and posting back personal messages to members, an d he snapped at the person complaining saying the mod did nothing wrong. Deleting and banning for political views, and the list goes on, including stalking. Now he is taking away our right to complain about the site? Does anyone else see the barbed wire fences going up around us? I am quite disgusted with this site, and know the winds of change are coming. Some of the greatest poetic minds on earth were political, and fought being stifled. I say this will occur here as well. If not ON here, away from here. At a site that actually gives a damn. Let me pose a question to everyone reading this....how many have imed or emailed Kevin, never to get a response from his highness? Many I am sure because i have tried to talk to him, and never been given any regard. As for the mods....well my opinions of quite a few are by far NOT good. Oh well. If this is his "brainchild" or "baby" then he is a bad parent and should have it taken away.
I will continue to write protests against this site till Kevin takes notice and makes some changes, and not changes thatv stifle strong voices. What is next...tattooed numbers on our wrists?????
As the great Dr Maya Angelou said...."I know why the caged bird sings".
Blessed be
~~Serenity~~
Billie Jean -
Ok, I might be saying what some people have already said, since there have been so many comments and my eyes are melting from too much pc, so I haven't read em all, hehe, but I applaud this, because it needed saying. Whilst it's understandable that some people will have problems with some aspect or other of this site, when there's a huge featured campaign about how something or other is wrong, it not only takes the place of actual poetry, but also feels slightly melodramatic...
Thanks for posting this.
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poorly thought out
I'm NOT opposed to a new "official outlet" for policy discussions, and complaints. BUT that should not come at the expense of free speech.
In the past, policies were implemented that were rather poorly thought out, and the "official channels" (ie... IM's to KEV and the mods) proved to be totally ineffective. In those instances, it was "Protests" in the Featured Box that brought about reasonable changes in policy. This newest policy, banning protests removes that ability, and simply runs roughshod over the very principles that AP proclaims: That it's a "Free and Open" forum. Muzzling protests is not "Free and Open". -
that's a total load of shit.
you don't want to deal with anyone having issues with what you do. and by the way, desiree darkk should not have been banned. -
So what are we saying here folks...that one cannot question policies and procedures featured through a poem...I don't understand...because if you rely on the mods and Kevin to give you an answer about something...should you be so lucky...if they contact you...sometimes, this may be the only way of getting an answer
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and because it wasn't about curses, I disagreed with your comment. And I never said anything about complaints in themselves other than to suggest that a blanket ban on complaints irrespective of poetic quality struck me as unwarranted.
Personally, I have no disagreement with a channel to place protests before the administration. I whole-heartedly agree with Kevin and you that this is a good idea. However, the rest of Kevin's post extends the policy to delete protests posted poems or columns. This is where I disagree with him, obviously, and with you apparently.
If you are suggesting that you do not support that further extension, then you and I are in accord. -
Someone tell me where this new rule is located...As I can't seem to find it anywhere
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WINDHOVER3 please re-read my comment.
I did not say it was about curses. I said I was fed up of hearing curses.
I also said that I applauded the complaints procedure instigated. I did not comment on the complaints themselves.
I assume you did read the comment at the top of the column.
JS -
AllPoetry is Five Star***** Tripl A+++ plus
Good idea. There are trouble makers who come on just to create havoc and rarely write poetry. One has waged an attack on me three time. I think everybody should be given the benefit of the doubt instead of misperception superceding reality as is what led person to attack me three times and a couple of others once. The hazard of our language is many things can be taken more way than one yet so often it is easy to jump to conclusions without giving person the benefit of doubt. Better to nicely ask first and give person a chance to explain rather than assuming and running hog wild... as we know what they say that can do. So many things worthwhile a few can try to ruin. I applaud your creative genius here "and" your calm under many attacks "and" this notice. Godspeed and Best Wishes 24/7 henceforth and forevermore. Oh and CONGRATULATIONS on your upcoming wedding and I hope the upcoming AllPoetry convention will be a complete success.
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EXACTLY Mystical. I agree COMPLETELY. An argument on a column is something we can all choose to participate in or ignore. One that has to spill out all over participant's POEMS that have nothing to do with the discussion are disruptive and should be dealt with.
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Here here. Current policy absolutely forbids columns which attack people... as they should. Let's not put subject matter, particularly that which does matter to all of us on some sort of black list.
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Frankly, I might agree if this were about banning curses, but it isn't. Why is a protest poem any less poetic than a love poem. What about love poems that also protest? I frankly hate reading bad poetry, but I do it as a cost of participating in this community and enjoying the freedoms that it provides. This policy simply strips that away.
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NoIQ, it would be incredibly boorish of ME to lump everyone together who disagrees with me....and would make a rather large unpalatable lump! The people I was referring to are the ones who decided that "supporting their friend" meant going to poems written by people their friend was having a problem with and leaving rude, hurtful comments. People SHOULD be able to state their opinion without fear that their work will be victimized. HONEST, CONSTRUCTIVE debates are healthy and help resolve differences. Demeaning, unprovoked attacks promote hate and distrust.
Personally I have no problem at all with someone posting a column as a complaint and featuring it. How they spend their points is up to them. Inciting a lynch mob to terrorize people just doing their job is despicable and is something I DO have a problem with. -
I agree with all you are unsaying. Unfortunately, this new policy does not allow for poetic protest. I would quote the relevant passage, but to do so would be grounds for banning (honestly, it is). There is a policy in place (again, I can't quote it) that says no subject matter is dissallowed, though limits are placed on how they are explored. This would be the very first time where ap has specifically said "this topic may not be written about".
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allpoetry.com/Poem/1321863
Don't you think the above is going to work wonderfully as an advertisement for AP?
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Well, it seems that nobody here has actually taken the time to read this posting of yours. People, he just said, if you have a complaint, here's where to take it. And yet, here we are, back to the same old thing, people whining on other people's pages. Take it where it needs to be, and if you don't like the policy then go ahead and leave the site. I love this site, I'm sick of hearing all the little bickering. I personally think this new policy is a wonderful idea, and I would applaud Kevin more than once for it if I could. It seems like some people here want all the benefits from AP, but if it's not your way all the time they revert back to children and start whining and throwing crayons. I come to AP to write poetry, not see people throwing temper tantrums because "It's not fair!". Why is there even a problem with this new policy? People like me don't have to see the bickering, and people who are upset about something can still express themselves. Is it just because you like all the attention, or what? I'm positive this post will offend someone, but I am not about to sit by and let people rag on Kevin constantly when he does so much for this site and for us. Get over yourselves people, life does not revolve around you and what you want. If anyone wants to respond to this with insults, I would be more than happy to hear them. Once again Kevin, I think this new policy is great, and you are doing an awesome job with the site.
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