What is a Troll? A troll is someone who likes starting big arguments, usually by making up a stance that many people will disagree with. Trolls (and 'trolling') is not allowed because it is the sport of tearing apart an online community. People get upset about the smallest things online, and it's pretty easy to pull them into big fights.
Trolling is a form of community harassment and is prohibited by existing allpoetry policy covering harassment.
There is a level of interpretation in drawing the line between artistic license and a troll. Sensationalist poetry intentionally walks this line, and we will continue to try to allow as much poetry as possible. Poems in the adult category are allowed to be more sensationalistic, but may be against our rules if they are intended to harm and provoke others.
It gives you a lot of power to realize that some people are trying to raise your anger. Don't let them! Use the 'inappropriate content' form at the bottom of most pages and a moderator will take a look.
I invite everyone who is interested to read more at the excellent wikipedia site:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Update:
The sharp minds of allpoetry have helped me be more specific in some of the above sections, and to tone them down in many areas. This is now mostly an educational post that some users like starting fights, and we have power over them if we can name it.
What is a Troll? A troll is someone who likes starting big arguments, usually by making up a stance that many people will disagree with. Trolls (and 'trolling
Included in the list
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Comments
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That wasn't trolling, by the way, that was whining
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I still hate this term as a generalization.
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Thank you so much for this column..I've just realized I ran into a troll on the site tonight and didn't really know what one was before..I am going to read that link..thank you again for bringing this to our attention.
Kari -
sad that it is often used as an excuse just to stifle free speech because some dont like the content, wikipedia maybe isn't the best example considering there are so many errors on there as it is written by anyone and everyone! www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2005-12-06-wikipedia-truth_x.htm
Edited on Oct 23, 11:10 because 'ooops'. -
Bravo I totally agree with you.
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Kevin
This in itself is just plain embarrassing that an intelligent person would think this way. Who is to say what is trolling and what is not. Again we get right back to the subjectivity that so fuels censorship. If you are conservative, or it threatens the status quo, or indeed questions you as an individual, or simply takes accepted doctrine and turns it upside down, then most critique and most challenging points of view would certainly appear as “trolls.” The book burners would certainly agree with you, as would the KKK, as would the Nazis, as would the Inquisition. None of which have really fared well in historical terms as being good for the development of Mankind. Stalin’s purge if the intelligentsia, Mao’s Cultural Revolution certainly weeded out those trolls. But does it really make the world a better place and does it honestly make this a more interesting world. If I was a hacker I doubt whether I would be writing articles and columns about trolling- why are you?
David
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Horus 8
This is one of the most wonderful replies to one of the greatest bits of rubbish ever posted on this site. This column is in itself "trolling" for it is highly offensive to anyone with even a modicum of creativity and love of free speech. Ideas would still be scribbled on cave wall if the trolls hadn't stretched the boundaries. I believe in this article and in other replies Kevin has shown his hand and true intentions of closing this site down to those who dissent. It is an oxymoron to have controlled creativity or how about good acceptable art. Art by definition is the expression of one's self and whether it is acceptable or not depends greatly upon the subjectivity of those who view it.
Trolling?
This column quite frankly contradicts new policy with regards columns as I for one am incredibly offended by its Big Brother implications and how one person's protest is able to completely destroy another person's art.
Every advancement through human history has at its orgins somebody brave enough to swim against the current. Under Kevin's difinition of being offensive, they are trolls- they would be trampled and their ideas lost forever. Jesus himself under Kevin's definition was infact a troll for he preached ideas when Jupiter was God. And under the laws of controlling trolls, Kevin would be the first person hammering Jesus to the cross for inflaming people with his new ideas.
Horus8 has this just right- for art has always broken free of restraint. Has always taken unexpected directions and has always from time to time offended people. Both Volatire and Rouseau lived most of their lives in exile yet both the French Revolution and the American Bill of Rights and Constitution, and every democratic principle is based on the writing of these trolls. Alan Freed was brave enough to play rock and roll on white radio- that troll was slaughtered later for doing so but he changed the way we listen to music forever. Trolls litter history and it is only these small fraction of people who are non creative garbage who would ever think to describe such innovators as "trolls"
Horus8 your article is wonderful and I pray that the greater community come to realise that art cannot be held like a beetle in a bottle. It has not boundaries and its unlimited potential is only bound by the "confedercy of dunces" who would ever think to support such a stifling notion and one that runs counter to art, creativity and the freedom to express.
As for you Kevin, you should be ashamed of yourself
Edited on Jun 17, 11:30 p.m. because ''. -
Informational. Wish I had read it oh many years ago when I had no clue trolls existed. Thanks!
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good
just thought I'd check out the updates...many of my friends on here have as well. just keeping in check.
glad to see your concern over this community.
that makes us your baby...or monster...
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I must say I have just been reading all this history. I stared by clicking on a poem by one of my particular favorites. Following the trail back to this article. I guess I am all too aware of how poems, articles, editorials and such from me have gotten very heated debate and I have beeen attacked numerous times for my beliefs and what I feel is wrong. I have never posted anything for the simple intent of cause discorse in the ranks of allpoetry. But I will say that what I read so far that has been going on is that a censorship is trying to come into power here. I would even go so far as to say I see satan in the mix. Also just an observation. It seems to me that this article is doing exactly what it was intended to ban. Trolling.
God Bless
Tammy -
Never argue with an idiot! After two minutes you won't be able to tell them apart!
John -
a troll is a troll is a troll, they all prove themselves as such eventually.
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You have certainly started an argument with this piece of prose, and reading the posts above, one could reasonably say that a substantial number of site members have been offended by it.
Might I quote from the Wikipedia article you find "excellent" and allow you to draw your own conclusions?
'As a pejorative, the term "troll" may also be a slander of opponents in heated debates, a tactic often done by trolls themselves .... Quite often, trolls have found with traditional trolling tactics so overused and commonplace that they have to disguise their trolling to make it effective; and this disguising is largely done recently by falsely accusing anyone they can of being trolls.'
The question only remains: will you have the decency and logical consistency to censor yourself?
Edited on May 15, 9:11 because ''. -
It just seems wrong.
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I read this column when it was first published and now back for a second read with the adjustments/corrections. First, I am glad to see that it is more educational than administrative rule/guideline/dictorian rules that it sounded like when I first read the article. I am one of these so-called social trolls: I write poetry from a perspective that pushes buttons on the way we perceive our world and I do not make any apologies about it. Yes, I have inflamed some readers, especially who can forget my In God's Garden poem that went to win five Gold trophies. Yes, I knew the subject matter would be offensive to some, and highly unthinkable that someone would actually pen a poem and then post it. My intention was not to stir this portion of the community up, because that was not my reason for penning it. My reason was an educational trip to think outside the box that one is comfortable with, that there are other ways to perceive educational information and to put them in words. Yet, you have one person coming in to read it, they send an IM out to all their friends and before you know it, instead of an intellectual debate going on, they are wishing to burn the fag at the stake like in the old days. Yet, there was no reason for this at all, since I am very careful with the classification of all my poetry, so for those who do not read the categories of where my poems have been placed before they venture on to read the actual text, lies not in the fault with myself as the writer, but with the fault of the reader for blindstepping this procedure.
Because my poetry lies in the forms of social consciousness, I realize that a lot of what I write would not be acceptable to the majority of poets on this site, yet I have managed to form a fan club of my own and am pleased that even amongst my faithful followers we can agree to disagree and have positive debates on the content of the poem and not personal attack me because of my lifestyle preferences. This shows maturity amongst us trolls.
Then there is the maturity with which one handles a blatant attack on them personally instead of what the text has said. Poets seem to forget that the I in a poem does not necessarily mean the I is the author, that the I could be a fictionalized character speaking through the poet and that the I should be read as if it were a character in a longer story and not the author per se.
Anger begets anger and attacks beget attacks unless you have someone who has been witnessed to these shenanigans in their daily life that sitting at a computer and internalizing comments that are directed at them personally by responding back with positive feedbacks and redirecting the reader back to the poem with a new insight (that is if the reader even cares to go back and re-read the poem again, most of them they are telling you to Fork It and burn in hell because of what was written.
These comments I have become immune to, and in the past year, I have only blocked one person on my list for the comments they left on a poem of mine with the guidance from a moderator to do it. Yes, I have become immune to insensitive remarks directed at me instead of my poetry and clearly do not respond to such comments because it causes a vicious circle of negativeness which I can do without in my life. Will I ever stop being the social conscious writer that I have become living with an illness that is so discriminatory that I have had to build shields around me so that I do not become an emotional wreck. I will stop writing these social poems when society changes its attitudes towards their fellow human beings. And if I am socially attacked because of blinders worn by certain individuals in society who think because they have a higher education that I, then I will continue to bear their crosses along with mine and walk away for a slap in the face does not deserve a slap in return. I will just smile and walk away the better man, for I know what I wrote, it is not my fault if the education the reader has does not open new enlightens on situations throughout the world.
In retrospect, Horus8 and Martooni are the best trollers we have that brains me smiles whenever they interact to my face, as well as open my eyes to how others perceive the world around them.
Gregg
Edited on May 14, 11:58 because ''. -
Oh baby, drunk or sober if you had done Ray's wife you would never forget!
She charms snakes, druken men, and even some women, the women she has to turn down, prefers the man thing, you know! LMAO
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i think i did ray's wife... but that was before Darcy... not after... i must have been drunk cause i dont remember it... that well
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You could make love to Ray's wife--well maybe we would %$#@ but that would have to be after hours of love making! Darcy I'm so sorry
I couldn't help it, billy set himself up for that, really!
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I agree with your sentiments, but strongly disagree with calling Glacian one...
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We love kevin, we would never line his site with irresponsible, whiining, discontented trolls
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now, now, all you little troller wannabe's....(somewhat like me )...be nice...oh wait..if you're nice then you're not a troll...oh well.....go for it gang....merrily we troll along, troll along, merrily we troll along o'r allpoetry.
I just had to come back after my earlier comment and see what was new...as our very own allpoetry rabi might say...."veddy interesting"
Dee
Where is that guy anyhow??????? -
My understanding is that Trolls are unpleasant bad tempered people that live in caves on the tops of mountains – I can’t find where it says that they have access to computers, but then computers are relatively new and my dictionary is rather old. It is really a surprise to me that the Internet now reaches inside caves on the tops of mountains – isn’t progress wonderful – Albert.
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ok i understand now... ive read your poetry and you are obviously challenged... i am sorry if i have offended you... idiot
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first you must be new.... and as far as poetry goes ive forgotten more than you'll every fucking write... this is a poetry site... where people speak their mind... after all isnt that what poetry is about speaking your mind... and sometimes stirring the shit... i think there are sites for fucking people like you... childrens site that are safe from the beast that is me... and as far as fucking other people's wives go... i am sorry if it offends... but baby take a look at my picture... jesus christ... who wouldnt fuck me...
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I find this post very interesting because it clearly has incensed some of the community to some kind of heightened anger state in fact I feel like if I say it annoys me then I too am guilty of being an above mentioned troll, by expressing my own opinion. As much as being horrible to someone isnt very nice and it is up to the moderators (of whom I have no doubt are great people) to deal with this... oh no... have I just been fooled into joining some kind of silly argument?
C -
btw... my name is really "shrek" and i may fart and burp and scratch myself, but i'm a nice troll. just ask the stupid donkey.
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i found that it's very difficult to get poo off a white shirt. but then i tried OXYCLEAN! and all my troubles were solved and i inherited a fantastical castle and ended up with TWO nubile princesses and the damn stain even came out.
did i mention i got TWO princesses?
i'll sell'em cheap. who in their right mind wants two prissy women in your bed who think their shit smells like roses and expect you to bring home not just bacon, but the WHOLE DAMN FARM every day.
nebber mind. i digress. -
I think it can be good to be the devils advocate. Hell, that's what debate class is for. Sometimes you argue points you could care less about, or you may even feel contrary about. What's the point? To think about things in a different way. So it sometimes ends up as a couple of incoherent savages grunting and throwing poo at each other. At least someone learned something about themselves. I think down the anti-trolling road lies censorship and needless troll hunts. Boo.
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thank you for listening to us kevin. we do love you and the site, and we would never lead you astray. besides you always supply us with the best material to satire. no other site on the web does that. i'll even be nice and not post mine.
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One thing about this post all the so-called "trollers" identified themselves, you could watch them in action, hahahaha, and I still do NOT know WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON! I am fairly new to this site, joining in January and not coming actually coming here until March to post. Coming from another site due to "newbies" with free 30 day trials, who wrote 0 poems and did ALL reviews! The reviews were enough to send many, many of the poets running for new sites. Myself, I just complained, and the vulgar remarks were removed for me. The reason I left the site was "Christians were overtaking the damn thing!" I am a Christian, but there is a difference between being a Christian and being a religious zealot! Seemed they always found a way to get to you through the reviews. Everyone was posting fricking prayers constantly! Sorry, but to me a prayer is NOT a poem. I was a teen in the 60's, we fought like hell for our freedom of speech! We protested the war, we did what we thought necessary, we influenced the music, banned commercial music, boycotted, etc. Now we have the Internet. It is the new home for the voices of discontent, also the religious, the African Americans, Indians, American Indians, and I could go on and on. Each culture has their own religions and cultural values that are unique to them. We can not allow the Christians to get the idea that they are in control of this country's civil rights! By the definition of "trolling" according to your link, I am also a troll. I have opinions and that makes me a troll. I give honest reviews, if the I take Critical Comments is there, I critique, I try to be nice and make suggestions, or I complain about the content or topic. Yesterday, I did just that on a piece I found highly objectionable, topic ticked me off, on my way down to comment, I noticed the poet bitching out the reviewers who made suggestions, profanities included, he/she WAS BRILLIANT they claimed and NOBODY was ever going to critcize this person and get by with it, he/she also complained to each person who reviewed that he/she was NOT given an APPLAUSE he/she NEEDED it since they spent ALL their coins using the Feature Box to feature the poem. I critqued the poem even telling the poet I felt scared to do so, since it was fairly clear by his/her comments to others that he/she really DID NOT want criticism. I continued on with what I enjoyed and disliked. Today I signed on and found a VERY NASTY message from this person, a very long and nasty message. Right behind it was a review of my poem by the same person going on an on about how great my poem was? I IM'd this person telling them I accidently lost the message, it just disappeared! Although I skimmed through it getting the jest of it, I wanted to respond, but it was gone. Now they play totally stupid, "what message?" "Sorry, do not understand?" "I do not recall ever sending one?" So convenient, now I read every post out here today and even assisted to sponsor the campaign against this censorship, am I a troll? Never saw this person comment once in reading all these posts today, funny? Something tells me he/she may have been scared off by something? All I know is I thought I found a place where I could rest my weary bones and write some poetry about some controversial issues and now find myself back in the same position I just left! The Christians again! I know the poets, including myself do not much like it when they spend coins to feature their work and get hardly any comments, but isn't this the price we pay for having the right to say as we please? I had NO idea that we lose coins if we DO NOT comment, but I see here today I have, being afraid to review now and all! I always skip over the topics that offend me, too bad for the guy who featured it, same for me, it happens to me all the time, if I say something either objectionable to someone or they are Christians just reading my erotica without commenting (first ones there) SO WHAT! I think I would much rather have NO review then a review from someone who hates the topic or subject matter. If they wish to critque and assist in creating a better poem with me GREAT, I so value those reviews! I could go on and on, so many have, everything as been covered pretty much, but I as a member of AP would like to KNOW the new guidelines for our poetry. It will make a big difference to me since my membership runs out in July, and I was going to purchase two more, one for a friend and one for my grand daughter, but it 100 percent depends on the new guidelines. I thought I found a place where freedom reigned. WRONG! Christians reign! Worst part is I am a Christian, and clearly we are NOT all the same. Please post a clear detailed copy of the new guidelines, it would be very much appreciated. Please don't make me leave, I really love this place so far, the people are great, even the trollers, the contests are great, the freedom to write your opinions, I so value that! As you can see so do many others. Peace!
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I'm just gonna assume that I'm listed in that 'couple dozen poets' you mentioned, lol, and take my leave by saying RIGHT ON and THE BAR IS OPEN!
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in reply to onerios13...
nah... that has nothing to do with misinterpreting poetic license. that's just a prime example of the assbackwards mentality that started this whole "trolling" issue.
i've said my bit about it earlier. so has everyone else.
now i'm home with my big bottle of hootch -- and shutup horus, because i AM the drunk i write about (though i do take the occasional poetic liberty with details) -- so all of you can carry on without me now. the "troll" rule seems to have crawled back under the bridge where it came from and our goats are safe to cross without being molested so i'm off to do what i came here to do: write.
and if anyone has been offended by the 8000 words or so i posted today regarding this, feel free to stick your own foot as far up your ass as possible -- it'll save me the trouble.
it would be so nice if everyone here would simply act like the adults they claim to be and would shut the hell up about how offensive other people's work is and maybe if they spent half as much of that time proofreading and editing their own shitty work instead of bitching, then maybe -- just maybe -- i might respect more than the couple dozen poets i've found here who care about the craft and actually work to improve their skills. -
"I think that if he wants to say stuff and do what he said in that comment he needs to join another site besides AP, this site is about poetry not being with another person's wife, or trying to be with another person's wife, it's about poetry dude!"
Hmmm...not to start any trollin' or anything here, lol, but I DO believe that he said that in jest and not LITERALLY. I guess that's just another one of those darn poetic license thingies...ya know, something called 'sarcasm' or 'exaggeration to prove a point'...so unless you can't handle that, maybe you should puruse other sites that caters more to the 'oblivious'. Have a nice day.
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You come to this column and attack another member who leaves his opinion behind. That is trolling. You don't know billydavidson. You don't know his ways or his humor or his very blunt way of communicating. He wasn't speaking to you or about you but you took it upon yourself to tell him to go elsewhere? "There are sites on the internet for your kind Your kind????. He was a Paying member of this site long before you showed up and I suspect he'll be a member long after you are gone.
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I can see what you're trying to do here kevin. Alas, there is a word synonymous with what you're attempting to accomplish: "Censorship". "Trolling" as you put it can also be a form of expression. Take the Character Lord Henry from Oscar Wilde's book: "The Picture of Dorian Grey". He is a most enjoyable character, but is what "you" call a "troll".
It may not be their actual opinion, but it could make others think, and make other valid opinions reguarding the said matter.
I do however have a problem with rudeness, profanity, and incomplete "trolling". As long as a person presents his arguement in a civil way, and either admits defeat or is victorious when the time comes.
I think you're version of trolls or the trolls you've encountered were probably immature in their thought process, vulgar in their presentation, weak in their counter-arguements or something along those lines.
Anyway, do let me know how the hunt for trolls goes wont you?
-Mark -
Sorry if I offended some of you..just commented on what I was reading..excuse me!
Edited on May 16, 3:10 p.m. because ''. -
I remember, for like a half a year, I wouldn't say anything on billy's poems, I would torture him and just say shit like "OH, Billy... billy... Touch me billy" remember that? that was hilarious dude. And like we didn't even know eachother, you must have thought I WAS... Really a TROLLING along.
Edited on May 13, 4:02 p.m. because ''. -
Update I take back my response too, but I am not rewording my poem!
I am thoroughly education--um--so to speak! O-o
We do love you Kevin, you poet (troll) you!
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Um-- the policy numbered 16 is gone! What troll took that down?
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You see how fucking singleminded I am! Yes it was "nigger hole" which I kinda like now, I think it grows on you a bit! Either that or my discussions with you have opened my mind a bit more! Change it back, right now you toll!
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Actually it was 'nigger hole' which I was trying to think of
a word to describe the darkest scariest most misunderstood
hole of all time, and then, it dawned on me, nigger hole, frankly
I thought it was brilliant, but then, you forced me to evolve, and
we became fast friends.
Edited on May 13, 3:42 p.m. because ''. -
Spoken like an utter, ah... troll.
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there, you're right, I edited
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Hey eyeball abby, you,ve got to be kidding, posting that site as something to be banned. I think its hilarious( the poem). So the person thought we are a bunch of overated blowhards, so what? If thats what they think great. But now knowing that you do, I couldnt ever imagine censoring you about it. This seems to be a FREE SPEECH SITE. Why do you think draconian governments arrest the poets first? Any way, my friend, (by the way, this is not a troll maybe go back and read that poem (or non-poem) again, I mean there is merit to whom it may concern, even if Im not. Thank you for your time, besides we should be writing poetry now instead of even worrying about this crap...
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pathetic
what the fuck is there if we cannot write what we want... as long as labeled properly in order to keep the young ones from seeing it... im an adult who loves a good drunken brawl and love to troll just for the sake of getting a rise out of all the guys whose wives ive fucked,,, does it make a difference really for fuck sake... this is the internet... why are we setting this up like a golf course community complete with watch dogs... -
Well, Kevin, you've certainly stirred up a bit of controversy here yourself, my dear friend. (Ummm.. can it be construed as 'trolling'?....just wondering)
In scrutinizing this column, weighing the pro's and con's of badmouthing, arguing and right down antaginism, I have decided that, in my opinion, trolling is a part of life and therefore a part of soulsearching poetic malfunction....oops.. did I troll a bit there...sorry.
But if our fellow poets can't cope with a bit of argumentive literature, how can we even hope to deal with the moans and groans of heartfelt angst, love gone awry, mushy romanticism, cut and bleed, dead poets writing how they committed suicide and died to tell about it, etc, etc
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As a site greeter, I come across all kinds of writes, some of which would probably be considered trolling... but hey... it's what the person feels, right?! So let them express it....doesn't mean I or any other reader has to allow themselves to be pulled into it.
Each of us needs to be in control of what we read, and whether or not we comment. I read it, in the case of a new poet, because it's my job here on allpoetry. I think in all the years I've done the site greeter thing, there have been two times that I reported it to a mod, and that was because the 'poem' was extremely blasphamus (sic), (a porno picture posted with one), and try as I might, I could not even remotely think of the poem as anything but a bunch of foul mouthed trash.
Now, I'm pretty much a broadminded person and if I'd known of the term 'trolling' at the time, I might have thought of it as that. After all, what else could the poet mean, if not to be controversial and reap antagonistic comments.
My main point is that freedom of speach needs to be uppermost on this site. And in spite of some of the poetry I object to, and the ruling about foul language being okay... well, I still stand by the freedom of speech thing.
Non of us have to click on a title we find offensive, or if we start reading a poem which turns out to be inflamatory and/or offensive, we don't have to continue and we don't have to comment.
You've written a thoughtful and provocetive piece here, Kevin and I applaud you for that. And I can't help but wonder.... is this a bit of deliberate 'trolling'???????
As for a rule prohibiting 'trolling'... hmmmm... I don't think that's wise...who's to be the judge and jury? Besides, it does do something for our circulation, getting the blood boiling, enriching our endorphin levels.... I've found some of this stuff to be rather amusing, both in the poem content and the comments....and surely interesting. We don't have to take it all seriously, ya know.
Probably in the midst of all the comments you've inspired with this seemingly controversial piece, my rather plain language spiel may go relativly unnoticed, and that's okay... others have spoken of both sides of the issue and it's complexity much more eloquently than I.
I guess the bottom line for me is that ...we don't need a 'rule' against trolling. We just need to use common sense... who knows what the next rule might be.... maybe against cutting and suicide poems?....or jesting about sexual oriented writes (Oh my gosh, what would we do without the likes of poetry by Desiri Darkk and Jonny Zero) ...or maybe the angst of abuse. Many of these are outpourings of true feelings, a cry for help...but I digress.
Thank you for the column, Kevin. Controversial?...yes.... thought provoking? ...yes......and it certainly sparked a lot of great comments, amusing, serious and all points in between.
Dee
Edited on May 13, 3:14 p.m. because ''. -
"Update: The sharp minds of allpoetry have helped me be more specific in some of the above sections, and to tone them down in many areas. This is now mostly an educational post that some users like starting fights, and we have power over them if we can name it."
OK, now I am really confused.... Was the policy I quoted in my earlier post now removed? I see a comment from you, Kevin, that indicates you toned down the piece, and the quote above seems to have replaced what I quoted earlier. So, having seen this newly edited "Trolling" column, as well as your comment, what exactly IS the AP policy on trolling, if there is one at all? -
huh? i got some of that but for the most part shook my head nad went what?
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"all of your best poets and true artists are trolls" And so you say oh god of genius!
Now see horus, you've brought all of the trolls out of the damn woodwork! Hey, I ain't a 'fucking'girlfriend, and I sure as hell ain't stupid, absentminded sometimes, I must admit, however, I do have a bad case of CRS!
Let us look closely at how I made your aquaintance, my friend, and I call you that with a true adoration (now, this was not always the case)
Remember your poem, "Nigger"! I tagged it, said it was offensive! You changed the title to "Spade", that ticked me off even more. I blocked your ass, came back a couple of months later and apologized, you shared your reasoning with me (however trite I thought it was) no just kidding, and we began to exchange comments, more out of respect, as you say than agreeance (is that a word?) . I concede that we don't agree on many realms, but I believe we do know talent when we see it, we know reality in words and feelings, WE KNOW! To charge against that would be like halting the flow of thought that comes from the individual! We all know asshats, thanks to you, your enlghtenment has come full circle. I love everyone you mentioned up there, find their works to sometimes be offensive, but more often I find their words to be free, fluid, and downright poetic, lyrical even... so, I read them often and without judgement.
You said it all, and them some horus, KUDOS to you, and that's the end of me licking your face for the day.
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Oh but while we're at it...could we also put in the rulebook to ban 'really crappy ass poetry' from this site...cause ya know, I'd RATHER meet a troller than have to suffer though another poem that makes me bleed through the eyeballs...
But that's just my two cents.
Peace Out!
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this is what happens, kevin, when trolls get wind of a trolling.
now i'm all inspired and can't wait to get home and drink myself stupid and write some new poems.
and horus... you're only jealous because you can't grow such a fine luscious beard on that smug asshat you call a face.
btw... kevin... can we get a new emoticon that shows a bearded grin? -
I admit nothing except you are a shameless self promoter and that's spelled Darkk you boob.
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Kevin,
I find this latest policy to be one of the most disturbing of all the policies I've seen set here. For reasons already well stated by NoIQ and horus8 ( which I see no point in duplicating ).
I fail to see how being contradictory goes against the aims of art, when so many of those we call GREAT artists, of the present and the past do and did just that.
Where would society be had individuals not stood up against the grain to challenge the status quo? Surely even you can see that by removing what it seems you've defined as dissention you'll wind up with a stagnant pool? Is it not human nature to engage in both conflict and competition? Yes some people are little more than instigators, yet even they provide food for contemplation if one looks at it that way..
Edited on May 13, 2:04 p.m. because ''. -
Ha ha, see this is the greatest aspect of being a troller, EVENTUALLY you have to converge with what you secretly hate and don't understand, or in other words make friends. Which is cool, because, if you notice in life, you love and respect the one's you fight with THE MOST, they're the best relationship we end up having...
Anyway, back to our new found oddessey, I had to say I thought the same thing when I saw your picture, I was like, you know what he does the same shit I do, I work this funny made up cute model edgy dangerous asshat angle of horus8, when really I'm just jeremi, a great guy. And you, you have this edgy dark beatnick manson I don't wait in line look going on, and it's you, but it's not, because under that beard, you're me... I mean that's the oddest thing about this all. I never really didn't like you, I tried, and now I realize I failed. That's the real magic of this internet trolling thing, we'd never respect eachother and find out real friendship foundational qualities about ourselves unless we banged heads a few times. Any way, you're a great writer. A little dirty, but all the same quite clean, but please, shave before jesus comes back and takes his beard away from you.
My book? Published? Ah, that was easy, I wrote it, and it just reads really well. Like costner in field of dreams... Fuck it, okay:
I blew the mailman, the cop, the governer, jesus, ahbdul mohammed van clerkenstein, barry diller, david geffen, kevin, michael jackson, I blew elvira, robert rodriguez, cheech maron, I blew a lid, shit about thirty thousand lids, I blew up a car, a lot of red snapper fishing (they're deep fish and get the bends coming up) I blew nicole eggert (that was fun), and of course I blew the pope, dead.
Edited on May 13, 2:04 p.m. because ''. -
this is really scary. well, not so much scary, but weird. like finding a man attractive weird, but still disgusted with yourself for even thinking it. i probably could have said it better myself, but you're the golden published boy of the moment so i'll defer to you for now.
so who DID you sleep with to get that publishing deal?
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No, but i did manage to sell my lapsnorkle to this archeologist
in new mexico, apparently he thought, it was an ancient divining rod,
to which I nodded with a smile.
But now , let's stay really focused, and check mate them, and here's how
Dear Kevin;
What you really don't understand about linguistics and the internet
is this mate. I'm a troll, ed peterson's a troll, martooni, billy d, dp robertson, and all their fucking girlfriends (jantastic, onerios, desiree darkblah, (sorry if I don't name you all, but you know who you are, people on my faves and vice versa, and you mods, you know who you are), dude, all of your best poets and true artists are trolls, and we MIGHT despise eachother and heckle and bitch but when it comes to uniting and agreeing on things? we come down from the mountains guy!!! we crawl out of the oceans, we jump rivers and swing out of trees to merge, unite, voice out, shake hands, love eachother, WE CHALLENGE ONE ANOTHER!!!! We make friction and jokes in order to show respect, jealousy, instinct, power, love and dedication to the art. we are the rainbow, everyone has the troll in them, it's an essential aspect to the machine, it's what forces us to grow, but being creative and magnificently rotten can only be pulled off when artists can come together and have 'that ethereal BBQ in the mind baby'... where we razz and charge eachother, fill up one another's drinks, argue, make love, eat, share, fight -- It's called life, join it. I mean, I don't know if I actually am a 'troll' but I do know I argue for what I believe in, but at the same time, I believe in free speech, so if some asshat wants to go around and argue something he doesn't even believe in!? Fuck it, more power to him, I personally think it's lame most of the time, but I'm no angel, I know where I draw the line, but at the same time, I'm not going to start telling people where they should draw their's, that's up to them. If they want to argue the benefit of felching to a Catholic mass? Shit, that's at least entertaining. I mean we can't keep the prudes from the loonies all the time, that would make us horribly tight assed, and pretty boring as a web site.
Edited on May 13, 3:58 p.m. because ''. -
Kevin:
I write this comment/question in part with my professional knowledge of the law. In the law, guidelines are specifically spelled out to avoid ambiguity. Here, my understanding of the new policy is as follows:
Trolling is the posting of inflammatory posts to start arguments and be offensive. Trolling (intentional or otherwise) is not allowed on allpoetry, and some excessively offensive titles and poems may require editing or deletion to deal with this. True anarchy would result in a unusable community, so we apologize for the occasional limitation of artistic license for the good of the community.
Please delineate FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY HOW a post is deemed to be "inflammatory" or "offensive." The closest analogy I know of in the law for such utterly vague terms is pornography, which is dictated under First Amendment principals by "community standards." HOWEVER, when in the rare case the law deems something unclear as to whether it is protected by the First Amendment (which is based on whether it has POSSIBLE moral or social merit), the question of community standards is left to a jury of peers. Here, there is absolutely, positively, no explanation of what standards will be applied. By way of example, is it now against site policy to question site policy itself in a column or poem? Are community standards going to be left to the public, solely to the discretion of an individual Moderator, all "jury" of all Moderators, or will you always be consulted? Recently, one of your Mods ran a contest that asked why abortion is not "murder." Needless to say, the comments to that contest alone were chock full of debate and differences of position. That contest in my mind was fair, and should hardly be discouraged even though I personally differed on the principal underlying it. However, I do not see how that could not be called "inflammatory," and to some people with particularly strong viewpoints "offensive." I sincerely do not understand this new policy, how it will be evaluated, how it will be implemented, or even how it can be challenged. I again go back to the example of criticism of site policy -- are you going to consider that "inflammatory"? I love this site, and appreciate the tireless, hard work you in particular, and the Mods in general, engage in. This post is not to criticize your own or their efforts. However, I have to tell you, even as a lawyer when I read this new trolling policy I have no idea what are its constraints.
Finally, I would note that your definition of trolling is itself questionable. As someone with a background in computer science, I expect you know that trolling almost universally refers to the habit of certain individuals to spam BULLETIN BOARDS or similar forums with deliberately inciteful comments. The problem that exists there is that there is no way for all members of the community NOT to be affected by the content. This new policy, however, is aimed at individual poems, which really isn't the same thing since they never actually are viewed at one time by the entire community. To the extent there is concern the poems nonetheless are accessible to all members of AP, I think the proper response in the case of poems is for the Mods to demand an "offensive" or "disruptive" poem to be marked as "adult," not to censor. As adults, we can and will ignore what irritates. If we argue, well, argue away -- if you're doing so with a troll you should ask yourself why. If this policy were directed to the Bulletin Boards, I probably would be less critical. However, as written, it appears to be centrally directed at poetic content.
Edited on May 13, 2:51 p.m. because ''. -
manson wishes he was as ugly and furry as i am.
for that matter, so do those pink-haired troll dolls with pencils stuck up their asses (trying to keep us on-topic here).
in any case, what's new in the world of self-promotion? managed to get your ass-hat on a cereal box yet?
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You have to admit, that was a good line.
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Machismo on a string.
Look, okay, so I did a couple of pornos
At least I don't dress up like Charles Manson
effortlessly. -
i guess i need to spell "compliment" correctly or spelling trolls like me will have their way with me.
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Why don't you two go get a room somewhere.
Now I'm off to plug my latest dildo poem. -
well... y'know i've been trying to, but your people and my people, they were too busy stabbing themselves and each other in the back to settle on a date/time.
1. thank you so much for the ass-hat... you knew how much i loved it when i complemented you on how good it looked on your face.
2. i'm actually joe pesce portraying serpico, but thanks so much for the complements on my poetry.
3. the last nun i ate at the four seasons was delicious. so glad you brought it up. their chicken francais is highly overrated and the nuns get no attention. and i'll have you know that was a g.i. joe who refuses to ask or tell.
4. and i don't shave or comb my netherparts neither, you conceited porno star with your genuine paul mitchell products.
so are we banned yet?
hahahahahaha....
that was fun.
but i'm bored now.
what's for dinner? -
I thought you'd never ask.
three reasons why I despise martooni
1. he uses the ass-hat I gave him last christmas as a vulva sponge instead
2. His poetry is strong, and he's intelligent, but I can't tell if he's just perpetually drunk, or actually, Robert Blake, therefore as doc holiday would say "I really hate him".
3.When i order fresh nun ala carte at the four seasons, he sits across from me petting, of all things, his kevin doll.
4. he doesn't properly comb his beardling.
(that was a bonus treasure troll)
Edited on May 13, 12:30 because ''. -
for once, i agree with you, you irascible bastard. we may butt heads, but we both come out stronger for it. this new policy might get us both banned for having a go at each other, so consider this comment an invite to trade another round of meaningless insults over our stupid poetry so we might tempt the admins into action. this whole "troll" thing is not fair cop at all when by definition, this column could be construed as a troll since, by the nature of its existence, implies that there must be trolls on the loose at AP and leaves everyone scratching their netherparts wondering whether to be offended or not. i guess those who aren't offended are too stupid to be offended.
so let's have at it, old chap. whaddya say? -
319 views and only 11 little clappers.
Who decides who is trolling? Is there one blanket rule? Oh what a can of worms you have opened here. That's okay it was getting quiet around here anyway. -
Thanks to everyone for their comments and (ironicly) flames. I've toned down the post significantly. It occurs to me that true trolls have not been allowed in our policies from the beginning, so I'm going to remove the extra policy I had added.
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Glacian.
Excellent point.
I believe the notion of divining author intent to be flawed, but certainly the case you present where an author posted a title like “Jesus Loves You” to lure in unsuspecting believers into a profanity filled diatribe would be a stronger case for “trolling” than what actually transpired.
I have posted something similar elsewhere, and I begin with the concession that figurative analogies are not logical proof but merely illustrative.
The jihadists of 9/11 construed the Twin Towers as obvious symbols of American Imperialistic Power with the clear “author intention” of conveying world domination. Clearly they were trolling to offend and had to come down.
Theo van Gogh could be construed as having “trolled” with his film “Submission." Shouldn’t he have known that was likely to get him shot by an Islamic fundamentalist?
If as a member of this site you regularly flame other members by posting on their pages or IMing them with flames based upon your opposition of their belonging to any group (Christians, Erotic Poets, Hispanics, Hairy Nosed Wombats) then the site has a clear policy concerning harassment with blocks and ignores to deal with most issues and a site policy for banning when members will not cease abusive behavior.
As you put it your case seems to be an example of a splinter cell of the KKKristian Taliban colluding to target a particular poem’s title for leveling. The administration has aided them in the leveling and jumped on a slippery slope of prior restraint and a chilling effect on written expression.
Peace.
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You know Kevin, There are so many poems and colums on this site that offend someone or another that this whole thing you call trolling is stupid. If that is the case you should look into the writes that demean women, ethnic backgrounds, sexual prefrences and people in general. Religion seems to be a very popular target for this and it is allowed. Freedom of speech ??? Harassment ??? How do you label the fact that this is a site where poems and colums are written that are from the poets mind and opinions and not everyone is going to like or agree with some things that are said and done. I could see you comming after personal attacks, but your definition of trolling is just not on the money on this one.
Edited on May 13, 11:41 because ''. -
Shame shame shame. The world and its hideous little values have been disgusting me lately. It is too bad to see, that even on here, we are trying to please everyone. It will never happen. No matter what laws you put into place and what rules you make, someone, somewhere will be offended. What right do any of us have to say what offends and what does not? I am a bit offended by this entire premise. It does not matter. Personaly I am offended by religious poetry, but since I know this, I make it a point not to read it. Are we that stupid that we intentionally cause drama by reading things we know will offend us? Then cry about it to others after putting ourselves in that situation? Shame shame. What has the world come to when literature must be politically correct? History must be re-written so as not to offend others. The truth must be concealed so we can all remain in this false sense of euphoria. What a hideous time and place we live in.
Despair
Edited on May 13, 11:20 because 'because..'. -
This goes against free speech, artistic expression, is conservative propaganda,
and basically shows just how crippled and lazy we've become as writers and
artists. How in the hell can people hash out a debate with censorship like this in there way? If it wasn't for internet "trolls" my writing would never have improved.
If it wasn't for people unafraid to tell me what they thought of my work, my work
would never have improved to the point of being published. In my opinion, if you remove the trolls (predators) from the island, then all you achieve is an overpopulation of rats and rabbits that destroy the island in pointless consumption and over-breeding. This policy goes against nature and artistic freedom, on every possible level. It protects the retarded, affording them the right to stay stupid, while it
cripples the strong protagonists, and friction agents, forcing them out
of the formula of basic evolution. This is, by far and away? The most ridiculous
crap I've ever heard. This is exactly why there's a war in iraq right now, and not in our public school learning programs where the real war to educate should be raging.
Edited on May 13, 11:35 because ''. -
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