What is a Troll? A troll is someone who likes starting big arguments, usually by making up a stance that many people will disagree with. Trolls (and 'trolling') is not allowed because it is the sport of tearing apart an online community. People get upset about the smallest things online, and it's pretty easy to pull them into big fights.
Trolling is a form of community harassment and is prohibited by existing allpoetry policy covering harassment.
There is a level of interpretation in drawing the line between artistic license and a troll. Sensationalist poetry intentionally walks this line, and we will continue to try to allow as much poetry as possible. Poems in the adult category are allowed to be more sensationalistic, but may be against our rules if they are intended to harm and provoke others.
It gives you a lot of power to realize that some people are trying to raise your anger. Don't let them! Use the 'inappropriate content' form at the bottom of most pages and a moderator will take a look.
I invite everyone who is interested to read more at the excellent wikipedia site:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Update:
The sharp minds of allpoetry have helped me be more specific in some of the above sections, and to tone them down in many areas. This is now mostly an educational post that some users like starting fights, and we have power over them if we can name it.
What is a Troll? A troll is someone who likes starting big arguments, usually by making up a stance that many people will disagree with. Trolls (and 'trolling
Included in the list
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Comments
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That wasn't trolling, by the way, that was whining
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I still hate this term as a generalization.
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Thank you so much for this column..I've just realized I ran into a troll on the site tonight and didn't really know what one was before..I am going to read that link..thank you again for bringing this to our attention.
Kari -
sad that it is often used as an excuse just to stifle free speech because some dont like the content, wikipedia maybe isn't the best example considering there are so many errors on there as it is written by anyone and everyone! www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2005-12-06-wikipedia-truth_x.htm
Edited on Oct 23, 11:10 because 'ooops'. -
Bravo I totally agree with you.
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Kevin
This in itself is just plain embarrassing that an intelligent person would think this way. Who is to say what is trolling and what is not. Again we get right back to the subjectivity that so fuels censorship. If you are conservative, or it threatens the status quo, or indeed questions you as an individual, or simply takes accepted doctrine and turns it upside down, then most critique and most challenging points of view would certainly appear as “trolls.” The book burners would certainly agree with you, as would the KKK, as would the Nazis, as would the Inquisition. None of which have really fared well in historical terms as being good for the development of Mankind. Stalin’s purge if the intelligentsia, Mao’s Cultural Revolution certainly weeded out those trolls. But does it really make the world a better place and does it honestly make this a more interesting world. If I was a hacker I doubt whether I would be writing articles and columns about trolling- why are you?
David
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Horus 8
This is one of the most wonderful replies to one of the greatest bits of rubbish ever posted on this site. This column is in itself "trolling" for it is highly offensive to anyone with even a modicum of creativity and love of free speech. Ideas would still be scribbled on cave wall if the trolls hadn't stretched the boundaries. I believe in this article and in other replies Kevin has shown his hand and true intentions of closing this site down to those who dissent. It is an oxymoron to have controlled creativity or how about good acceptable art. Art by definition is the expression of one's self and whether it is acceptable or not depends greatly upon the subjectivity of those who view it.
Trolling?
This column quite frankly contradicts new policy with regards columns as I for one am incredibly offended by its Big Brother implications and how one person's protest is able to completely destroy another person's art.
Every advancement through human history has at its orgins somebody brave enough to swim against the current. Under Kevin's difinition of being offensive, they are trolls- they would be trampled and their ideas lost forever. Jesus himself under Kevin's definition was infact a troll for he preached ideas when Jupiter was God. And under the laws of controlling trolls, Kevin would be the first person hammering Jesus to the cross for inflaming people with his new ideas.
Horus8 has this just right- for art has always broken free of restraint. Has always taken unexpected directions and has always from time to time offended people. Both Volatire and Rouseau lived most of their lives in exile yet both the French Revolution and the American Bill of Rights and Constitution, and every democratic principle is based on the writing of these trolls. Alan Freed was brave enough to play rock and roll on white radio- that troll was slaughtered later for doing so but he changed the way we listen to music forever. Trolls litter history and it is only these small fraction of people who are non creative garbage who would ever think to describe such innovators as "trolls"
Horus8 your article is wonderful and I pray that the greater community come to realise that art cannot be held like a beetle in a bottle. It has not boundaries and its unlimited potential is only bound by the "confedercy of dunces" who would ever think to support such a stifling notion and one that runs counter to art, creativity and the freedom to express.
As for you Kevin, you should be ashamed of yourself
Edited on Jun 17, 11:30 p.m. because ''. -
Informational. Wish I had read it oh many years ago when I had no clue trolls existed. Thanks!
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good
just thought I'd check out the updates...many of my friends on here have as well. just keeping in check.
glad to see your concern over this community.
that makes us your baby...or monster...
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I must say I have just been reading all this history. I stared by clicking on a poem by one of my particular favorites. Following the trail back to this article. I guess I am all too aware of how poems, articles, editorials and such from me have gotten very heated debate and I have beeen attacked numerous times for my beliefs and what I feel is wrong. I have never posted anything for the simple intent of cause discorse in the ranks of allpoetry. But I will say that what I read so far that has been going on is that a censorship is trying to come into power here. I would even go so far as to say I see satan in the mix. Also just an observation. It seems to me that this article is doing exactly what it was intended to ban. Trolling.
God Bless
Tammy -
Never argue with an idiot! After two minutes you won't be able to tell them apart!
John -
a troll is a troll is a troll, they all prove themselves as such eventually.
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You have certainly started an argument with this piece of prose, and reading the posts above, one could reasonably say that a substantial number of site members have been offended by it.
Might I quote from the Wikipedia article you find "excellent" and allow you to draw your own conclusions?
'As a pejorative, the term "troll" may also be a slander of opponents in heated debates, a tactic often done by trolls themselves .... Quite often, trolls have found with traditional trolling tactics so overused and commonplace that they have to disguise their trolling to make it effective; and this disguising is largely done recently by falsely accusing anyone they can of being trolls.'
The question only remains: will you have the decency and logical consistency to censor yourself?
Edited on May 15, 9:11 because ''. -
It just seems wrong.
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I read this column when it was first published and now back for a second read with the adjustments/corrections. First, I am glad to see that it is more educational than administrative rule/guideline/dictorian rules that it sounded like when I first read the article. I am one of these so-called social trolls: I write poetry from a perspective that pushes buttons on the way we perceive our world and I do not make any apologies about it. Yes, I have inflamed some readers, especially who can forget my In God's Garden poem that went to win five Gold trophies. Yes, I knew the subject matter would be offensive to some, and highly unthinkable that someone would actually pen a poem and then post it. My intention was not to stir this portion of the community up, because that was not my reason for penning it. My reason was an educational trip to think outside the box that one is comfortable with, that there are other ways to perceive educational information and to put them in words. Yet, you have one person coming in to read it, they send an IM out to all their friends and before you know it, instead of an intellectual debate going on, they are wishing to burn the fag at the stake like in the old days. Yet, there was no reason for this at all, since I am very careful with the classification of all my poetry, so for those who do not read the categories of where my poems have been placed before they venture on to read the actual text, lies not in the fault with myself as the writer, but with the fault of the reader for blindstepping this procedure.
Because my poetry lies in the forms of social consciousness, I realize that a lot of what I write would not be acceptable to the majority of poets on this site, yet I have managed to form a fan club of my own and am pleased that even amongst my faithful followers we can agree to disagree and have positive debates on the content of the poem and not personal attack me because of my lifestyle preferences. This shows maturity amongst us trolls.
Then there is the maturity with which one handles a blatant attack on them personally instead of what the text has said. Poets seem to forget that the I in a poem does not necessarily mean the I is the author, that the I could be a fictionalized character speaking through the poet and that the I should be read as if it were a character in a longer story and not the author per se.
Anger begets anger and attacks beget attacks unless you have someone who has been witnessed to these shenanigans in their daily life that sitting at a computer and internalizing comments that are directed at them personally by responding back with positive feedbacks and redirecting the reader back to the poem with a new insight (that is if the reader even cares to go back and re-read the poem again, most of them they are telling you to Fork It and burn in hell because of what was written.
These comments I have become immune to, and in the past year, I have only blocked one person on my list for the comments they left on a poem of mine with the guidance from a moderator to do it. Yes, I have become immune to insensitive remarks directed at me instead of my poetry and clearly do not respond to such comments because it causes a vicious circle of negativeness which I can do without in my life. Will I ever stop being the social conscious writer that I have become living with an illness that is so discriminatory that I have had to build shields around me so that I do not become an emotional wreck. I will stop writing these social poems when society changes its attitudes towards their fellow human beings. And if I am socially attacked because of blinders worn by certain individuals in society who think because they have a higher education that I, then I will continue to bear their crosses along with mine and walk away for a slap in the face does not deserve a slap in return. I will just smile and walk away the better man, for I know what I wrote, it is not my fault if the education the reader has does not open new enlightens on situations throughout the world.
In retrospect, Horus8 and Martooni are the best trollers we have that brains me smiles whenever they interact to my face, as well as open my eyes to how others perceive the world around them.
Gregg
Edited on May 14, 11:58 because ''. -
Oh baby, drunk or sober if you had done Ray's wife you would never forget!
She charms snakes, druken men, and even some women, the women she has to turn down, prefers the man thing, you know! LMAO
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i think i did ray's wife... but that was before Darcy... not after... i must have been drunk cause i dont remember it... that well
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You could make love to Ray's wife--well maybe we would %$#@ but that would have to be after hours of love making! Darcy I'm so sorry
I couldn't help it, billy set himself up for that, really!
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I agree with your sentiments, but strongly disagree with calling Glacian one...
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We love kevin, we would never line his site with irresponsible, whiining, discontented trolls
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now, now, all you little troller wannabe's....(somewhat like me )...be nice...oh wait..if you're nice then you're not a troll...oh well.....go for it gang....merrily we troll along, troll along, merrily we troll along o'r allpoetry.
I just had to come back after my earlier comment and see what was new...as our very own allpoetry rabi might say...."veddy interesting"
Dee
Where is that guy anyhow??????? -
My understanding is that Trolls are unpleasant bad tempered people that live in caves on the tops of mountains – I can’t find where it says that they have access to computers, but then computers are relatively new and my dictionary is rather old. It is really a surprise to me that the Internet now reaches inside caves on the tops of mountains – isn’t progress wonderful – Albert.
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ok i understand now... ive read your poetry and you are obviously challenged... i am sorry if i have offended you... idiot
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first you must be new.... and as far as poetry goes ive forgotten more than you'll every fucking write... this is a poetry site... where people speak their mind... after all isnt that what poetry is about speaking your mind... and sometimes stirring the shit... i think there are sites for fucking people like you... childrens site that are safe from the beast that is me... and as far as fucking other people's wives go... i am sorry if it offends... but baby take a look at my picture... jesus christ... who wouldnt fuck me...
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I find this post very interesting because it clearly has incensed some of the community to some kind of heightened anger state in fact I feel like if I say it annoys me then I too am guilty of being an above mentioned troll, by expressing my own opinion. As much as being horrible to someone isnt very nice and it is up to the moderators (of whom I have no doubt are great people) to deal with this... oh no... have I just been fooled into joining some kind of silly argument?
C -
btw... my name is really "shrek" and i may fart and burp and scratch myself, but i'm a nice troll. just ask the stupid donkey.
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i found that it's very difficult to get poo off a white shirt. but then i tried OXYCLEAN! and all my troubles were solved and i inherited a fantastical castle and ended up with TWO nubile princesses and the damn stain even came out.
did i mention i got TWO princesses?
i'll sell'em cheap. who in their right mind wants two prissy women in your bed who think their shit smells like roses and expect you to bring home not just bacon, but the WHOLE DAMN FARM every day.
nebber mind. i digress. -
I think it can be good to be the devils advocate. Hell, that's what debate class is for. Sometimes you argue points you could care less about, or you may even feel contrary about. What's the point? To think about things in a different way. So it sometimes ends up as a couple of incoherent savages grunting and throwing poo at each other. At least someone learned something about themselves. I think down the anti-trolling road lies censorship and needless troll hunts. Boo.
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thank you for listening to us kevin. we do love you and the site, and we would never lead you astray. besides you always supply us with the best material to satire. no other site on the web does that. i'll even be nice and not post mine.
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One thing about this post all the so-called "trollers" identified themselves, you could watch them in action, hahahaha, and I still do NOT know WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON! I am fairly new to this site, joining in January and not coming actually coming here until March to post. Coming from another site due to "newbies" with free 30 day trials, who wrote 0 poems and did ALL reviews! The reviews were enough to send many, many of the poets running for new sites. Myself, I just complained, and the vulgar remarks were removed for me. The reason I left the site was "Christians were overtaking the damn thing!" I am a Christian, but there is a difference between being a Christian and being a religious zealot! Seemed they always found a way to get to you through the reviews. Everyone was posting fricking prayers constantly! Sorry, but to me a prayer is NOT a poem. I was a teen in the 60's, we fought like hell for our freedom of speech! We protested the war, we did what we thought necessary, we influenced the music, banned commercial music, boycotted, etc. Now we have the Internet. It is the new home for the voices of discontent, also the religious, the African Americans, Indians, American Indians, and I could go on and on. Each culture has their own religions and cultural values that are unique to them. We can not allow the Christians to get the idea that they are in control of this country's civil rights! By the definition of "trolling" according to your link, I am also a troll. I have opinions and that makes me a troll. I give honest reviews, if the I take Critical Comments is there, I critique, I try to be nice and make suggestions, or I complain about the content or topic. Yesterday, I did just that on a piece I found highly objectionable, topic ticked me off, on my way down to comment, I noticed the poet bitching out the reviewers who made suggestions, profanities included, he/she WAS BRILLIANT they claimed and NOBODY was ever going to critcize this person and get by with it, he/she also complained to each person who reviewed that he/she was NOT given an APPLAUSE he/she NEEDED it since they spent ALL their coins using the Feature Box to feature the poem. I critqued the poem even telling the poet I felt scared to do so, since it was fairly clear by his/her comments to others that he/she really DID NOT want criticism. I continued on with what I enjoyed and disliked. Today I signed on and found a VERY NASTY message from this person, a very long and nasty message. Right behind it was a review of my poem by the same person going on an on about how great my poem was? I IM'd this person telling them I accidently lost the message, it just disappeared! Although I skimmed through it getting the jest of it, I wanted to respond, but it was gone. Now they play totally stupid, "what message?" "Sorry, do not understand?" "I do not recall ever sending one?" So convenient, now I read every post out here today and even assisted to sponsor the campaign against this censorship, am I a troll? Never saw this person comment once in reading all these posts today, funny? Something tells me he/she may have been scared off by something? All I know is I thought I found a place where I could rest my weary bones and write some poetry about some controversial issues and now find myself back in the same position I just left! The Christians again! I know the poets, including myself do not much like it when they spend coins to feature their work and get hardly any comments, but isn't this the price we pay for having the right to say as we please? I had NO idea that we lose coins if we DO NOT comment, but I see here today I have, being afraid to review now and all! I always skip over the topics that offend me, too bad for the guy who featured it, same for me, it happens to me all the time, if I say something either objectionable to someone or they are Christians just reading my erotica without commenting (first ones there) SO WHAT! I think I would much rather have NO review then a review from someone who hates the topic or subject matter. If they wish to critque and assist in creating a better poem with me GREAT, I so value those reviews! I could go on and on, so many have, everything as been covered pretty much, but I as a member of AP would like to KNOW the new guidelines for our poetry. It will make a big difference to me since my membership runs out in July, and I was going to purchase two more, one for a friend and one for my grand daughter, but it 100 percent depends on the new guidelines. I thought I found a place where freedom reigned. WRONG! Christians reign! Worst part is I am a Christian, and clearly we are NOT all the same. Please post a clear detailed copy of the new guidelines, it would be very much appreciated. Please don't make me leave, I really love this place so far, the people are great, even the trollers, the contests are great, the freedom to write your opinions, I so value that! As you can see so do many others. Peace!
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I'm just gonna assume that I'm listed in that 'couple dozen poets' you mentioned, lol, and take my leave by saying RIGHT ON and THE BAR IS OPEN!
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in reply to onerios13...
nah... that has nothing to do with misinterpreting poetic license. that's just a prime example of the assbackwards mentality that started this whole "trolling" issue.
i've said my bit about it earlier. so has everyone else.
now i'm home with my big bottle of hootch -- and shutup horus, because i AM the drunk i write about (though i do take the occasional poetic liberty with details) -- so all of you can carry on without me now. the "troll" rule seems to have crawled back under the bridge where it came from and our goats are safe to cross without being molested so i'm off to do what i came here to do: write.
and if anyone has been offended by the 8000 words or so i posted today regarding this, feel free to stick your own foot as far up your ass as possible -- it'll save me the trouble.
it would be so nice if everyone here would simply act like the adults they claim to be and would shut the hell up about how offensive other people's work is and maybe if they spent half as much of that time proofreading and editing their own shitty work instead of bitching, then maybe -- just maybe -- i might respect more than the couple dozen poets i've found here who care about the craft and actually work to improve their skills. -
"I think that if he wants to say stuff and do what he said in that comment he needs to join another site besides AP, this site is about poetry not being with another person's wife, or trying to be with another person's wife, it's about poetry dude!"
Hmmm...not to start any trollin' or anything here, lol, but I DO believe that he said that in jest and not LITERALLY. I guess that's just another one of those darn poetic license thingies...ya know, something called 'sarcasm' or 'exaggeration to prove a point'...so unless you can't handle that, maybe you should puruse other sites that caters more to the 'oblivious'. Have a nice day.
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You come to this column and attack another member who leaves his opinion behind. That is trolling. You don't know billydavidson. You don't know his ways or his humor or his very blunt way of communicating. He wasn't speaking to you or about you but you took it upon yourself to tell him to go elsewhere? "There are sites on the internet for your kind Your kind????. He was a Paying member of this site long before you showed up and I suspect he'll be a member long after you are gone.
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I can see what you're trying to do here kevin. Alas, there is a word synonymous with what you're attempting to accomplish: "Censorship". "Trolling" as you put it can also be a form of expression. Take the Character Lord Henry from Oscar Wilde's book: "The Picture of Dorian Grey". He is a most enjoyable character, but is what "you" call a "troll".
It may not be their actual opinion, but it could make others think, and make other valid opinions reguarding the said matter.
I do however have a problem with rudeness, profanity, and incomplete "trolling". As long as a person presents his arguement in a civil way, and either admits defeat or is victorious when the time comes.
I think you're version of trolls or the trolls you've encountered were probably immature in their thought process, vulgar in their presentation, weak in their counter-arguements or something along those lines.
Anyway, do let me know how the hunt for trolls goes wont you?
-Mark -
Sorry if I offended some of you..just commented on what I was reading..excuse me!
Edited on May 16, 3:10 p.m. because ''. -
I remember, for like a half a year, I wouldn't say anything on billy's poems, I would torture him and just say shit like "OH, Billy... billy... Touch me billy" remember that? that was hilarious dude. And like we didn't even know eachother, you must have thought I WAS... Really a TROLLING along.
Edited on May 13, 4:02 p.m. because ''. -
Update I take back my response too, but I am not rewording my poem!
I am thoroughly education--um--so to speak! O-o
We do love you Kevin, you poet (troll) you!
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Um-- the policy numbered 16 is gone! What troll took that down?
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You see how fucking singleminded I am! Yes it was "nigger hole" which I kinda like now, I think it grows on you a bit! Either that or my discussions with you have opened my mind a bit more! Change it back, right now you toll!
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Actually it was 'nigger hole' which I was trying to think of
a word to describe the darkest scariest most misunderstood
hole of all time, and then, it dawned on me, nigger hole, frankly
I thought it was brilliant, but then, you forced me to evolve, and
we became fast friends.
Edited on May 13, 3:42 p.m. because ''. -
Spoken like an utter, ah... troll.
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there, you're right, I edited
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Hey eyeball abby, you,ve got to be kidding, posting that site as something to be banned. I think its hilarious( the poem). So the person thought we are a bunch of overated blowhards, so what? If thats what they think great. But now knowing that you do, I couldnt ever imagine censoring you about it. This seems to be a FREE SPEECH SITE. Why do you think draconian governments arrest the poets first? Any way, my friend, (by the way, this is not a troll maybe go back and read that poem (or non-poem) again, I mean there is merit to whom it may concern, even if Im not. Thank you for your time, besides we should be writing poetry now instead of even worrying about this crap...
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pathetic
what the fuck is there if we cannot write what we want... as long as labeled properly in order to keep the young ones from seeing it... im an adult who loves a good drunken brawl and love to troll just for the sake of getting a rise out of all the guys whose wives ive fucked,,, does it make a difference really for fuck sake... this is the internet... why are we setting this up like a golf course community complete with watch dogs... -
Well, Kevin, you've certainly stirred up a bit of controversy here yourself, my dear friend. (Ummm.. can it be construed as 'trolling'?....just wondering)
In scrutinizing this column, weighing the pro's and con's of badmouthing, arguing and right down antaginism, I have decided that, in my opinion, trolling is a part of life and therefore a part of soulsearching poetic malfunction....oops.. did I troll a bit there...sorry.
But if our fellow poets can't cope with a bit of argumentive literature, how can we even hope to deal with the moans and groans of heartfelt angst, love gone awry, mushy romanticism, cut and bleed, dead poets writing how they committed suicide and died to tell about it, etc, etc
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As a site greeter, I come across all kinds of writes, some of which would probably be considered trolling... but hey... it's what the person feels, right?! So let them express it....doesn't mean I or any other reader has to allow themselves to be pulled into it.
Each of us needs to be in control of what we read, and whether or not we comment. I read it, in the case of a new poet, because it's my job here on allpoetry. I think in all the years I've done the site greeter thing, there have been two times that I reported it to a mod, and that was because the 'poem' was extremely blasphamus (sic), (a porno picture posted with one), and try as I might, I could not even remotely think of the poem as anything but a bunch of foul mouthed trash.
Now, I'm pretty much a broadminded person and if I'd known of the term 'trolling' at the time, I might have thought of it as that. After all, what else could the poet mean, if not to be controversial and reap antagonistic comments.
My main point is that freedom of speach needs to be uppermost on this site. And in spite of some of the poetry I object to, and the ruling about foul language being okay... well, I still stand by the freedom of speech thing.
Non of us have to click on a title we find offensive, or if we start reading a poem which turns out to be inflamatory and/or offensive, we don't have to continue and we don't have to comment.
You've written a thoughtful and provocetive piece here, Kevin and I applaud you for that. And I can't help but wonder.... is this a bit of deliberate 'trolling'???????
As for a rule prohibiting 'trolling'... hmmmm... I don't think that's wise...who's to be the judge and jury? Besides, it does do something for our circulation, getting the blood boiling, enriching our endorphin levels.... I've found some of this stuff to be rather amusing, both in the poem content and the comments....and surely interesting. We don't have to take it all seriously, ya know.
Probably in the midst of all the comments you've inspired with this seemingly controversial piece, my rather plain language spiel may go relativly unnoticed, and that's okay... others have spoken of both sides of the issue and it's complexity much more eloquently than I.
I guess the bottom line for me is that ...we don't need a 'rule' against trolling. We just need to use common sense... who knows what the next rule might be.... maybe against cutting and suicide poems?....or jesting about sexual oriented writes (Oh my gosh, what would we do without the likes of poetry by Desiri Darkk and Jonny Zero) ...or maybe the angst of abuse. Many of these are outpourings of true feelings, a cry for help...but I digress.
Thank you for the column, Kevin. Controversial?...yes.... thought provoking? ...yes......and it certainly sparked a lot of great comments, amusing, serious and all points in between.
Dee
Edited on May 13, 3:14 p.m. because ''. -
"Update: The sharp minds of allpoetry have helped me be more specific in some of the above sections, and to tone them down in many areas. This is now mostly an educational post that some users like starting fights, and we have power over them if we can name it."
OK, now I am really confused.... Was the policy I quoted in my earlier post now removed? I see a comment from you, Kevin, that indicates you toned down the piece, and the quote above seems to have replaced what I quoted earlier. So, having seen this newly edited "Trolling" column, as well as your comment, what exactly IS the AP policy on trolling, if there is one at all? -
huh? i got some of that but for the most part shook my head nad went what?
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"all of your best poets and true artists are trolls" And so you say oh god of genius!
Now see horus, you've brought all of the trolls out of the damn woodwork! Hey, I ain't a 'fucking'girlfriend, and I sure as hell ain't stupid, absentminded sometimes, I must admit, however, I do have a bad case of CRS!
Let us look closely at how I made your aquaintance, my friend, and I call you that with a true adoration (now, this was not always the case)
Remember your poem, "Nigger"! I tagged it, said it was offensive! You changed the title to "Spade", that ticked me off even more. I blocked your ass, came back a couple of months later and apologized, you shared your reasoning with me (however trite I thought it was) no just kidding, and we began to exchange comments, more out of respect, as you say than agreeance (is that a word?) . I concede that we don't agree on many realms, but I believe we do know talent when we see it, we know reality in words and feelings, WE KNOW! To charge against that would be like halting the flow of thought that comes from the individual! We all know asshats, thanks to you, your enlghtenment has come full circle. I love everyone you mentioned up there, find their works to sometimes be offensive, but more often I find their words to be free, fluid, and downright poetic, lyrical even... so, I read them often and without judgement.
You said it all, and them some horus, KUDOS to you, and that's the end of me licking your face for the day.
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Oh but while we're at it...could we also put in the rulebook to ban 'really crappy ass poetry' from this site...cause ya know, I'd RATHER meet a troller than have to suffer though another poem that makes me bleed through the eyeballs...
But that's just my two cents.
Peace Out!
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this is what happens, kevin, when trolls get wind of a trolling.
now i'm all inspired and can't wait to get home and drink myself stupid and write some new poems.
and horus... you're only jealous because you can't grow such a fine luscious beard on that smug asshat you call a face.
btw... kevin... can we get a new emoticon that shows a bearded grin? -
I admit nothing except you are a shameless self promoter and that's spelled Darkk you boob.
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Kevin,
I find this latest policy to be one of the most disturbing of all the policies I've seen set here. For reasons already well stated by NoIQ and horus8 ( which I see no point in duplicating ).
I fail to see how being contradictory goes against the aims of art, when so many of those we call GREAT artists, of the present and the past do and did just that.
Where would society be had individuals not stood up against the grain to challenge the status quo? Surely even you can see that by removing what it seems you've defined as dissention you'll wind up with a stagnant pool? Is it not human nature to engage in both conflict and competition? Yes some people are little more than instigators, yet even they provide food for contemplation if one looks at it that way..
Edited on May 13, 2:04 p.m. because ''. -
Ha ha, see this is the greatest aspect of being a troller, EVENTUALLY you have to converge with what you secretly hate and don't understand, or in other words make friends. Which is cool, because, if you notice in life, you love and respect the one's you fight with THE MOST, they're the best relationship we end up having...
Anyway, back to our new found oddessey, I had to say I thought the same thing when I saw your picture, I was like, you know what he does the same shit I do, I work this funny made up cute model edgy dangerous asshat angle of horus8, when really I'm just jeremi, a great guy. And you, you have this edgy dark beatnick manson I don't wait in line look going on, and it's you, but it's not, because under that beard, you're me... I mean that's the oddest thing about this all. I never really didn't like you, I tried, and now I realize I failed. That's the real magic of this internet trolling thing, we'd never respect eachother and find out real friendship foundational qualities about ourselves unless we banged heads a few times. Any way, you're a great writer. A little dirty, but all the same quite clean, but please, shave before jesus comes back and takes his beard away from you.
My book? Published? Ah, that was easy, I wrote it, and it just reads really well. Like costner in field of dreams... Fuck it, okay:
I blew the mailman, the cop, the governer, jesus, ahbdul mohammed van clerkenstein, barry diller, david geffen, kevin, michael jackson, I blew elvira, robert rodriguez, cheech maron, I blew a lid, shit about thirty thousand lids, I blew up a car, a lot of red snapper fishing (they're deep fish and get the bends coming up) I blew nicole eggert (that was fun), and of course I blew the pope, dead.
Edited on May 13, 2:04 p.m. because ''. -
this is really scary. well, not so much scary, but weird. like finding a man attractive weird, but still disgusted with yourself for even thinking it. i probably could have said it better myself, but you're the golden published boy of the moment so i'll defer to you for now.
so who DID you sleep with to get that publishing deal?
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No, but i did manage to sell my lapsnorkle to this archeologist
in new mexico, apparently he thought, it was an ancient divining rod,
to which I nodded with a smile.
But now , let's stay really focused, and check mate them, and here's how
Dear Kevin;
What you really don't understand about linguistics and the internet
is this mate. I'm a troll, ed peterson's a troll, martooni, billy d, dp robertson, and all their fucking girlfriends (jantastic, onerios, desiree darkblah, (sorry if I don't name you all, but you know who you are, people on my faves and vice versa, and you mods, you know who you are), dude, all of your best poets and true artists are trolls, and we MIGHT despise eachother and heckle and bitch but when it comes to uniting and agreeing on things? we come down from the mountains guy!!! we crawl out of the oceans, we jump rivers and swing out of trees to merge, unite, voice out, shake hands, love eachother, WE CHALLENGE ONE ANOTHER!!!! We make friction and jokes in order to show respect, jealousy, instinct, power, love and dedication to the art. we are the rainbow, everyone has the troll in them, it's an essential aspect to the machine, it's what forces us to grow, but being creative and magnificently rotten can only be pulled off when artists can come together and have 'that ethereal BBQ in the mind baby'... where we razz and charge eachother, fill up one another's drinks, argue, make love, eat, share, fight -- It's called life, join it. I mean, I don't know if I actually am a 'troll' but I do know I argue for what I believe in, but at the same time, I believe in free speech, so if some asshat wants to go around and argue something he doesn't even believe in!? Fuck it, more power to him, I personally think it's lame most of the time, but I'm no angel, I know where I draw the line, but at the same time, I'm not going to start telling people where they should draw their's, that's up to them. If they want to argue the benefit of felching to a Catholic mass? Shit, that's at least entertaining. I mean we can't keep the prudes from the loonies all the time, that would make us horribly tight assed, and pretty boring as a web site.
Edited on May 13, 3:58 p.m. because ''. -
Kevin:
I write this comment/question in part with my professional knowledge of the law. In the law, guidelines are specifically spelled out to avoid ambiguity. Here, my understanding of the new policy is as follows:
Trolling is the posting of inflammatory posts to start arguments and be offensive. Trolling (intentional or otherwise) is not allowed on allpoetry, and some excessively offensive titles and poems may require editing or deletion to deal with this. True anarchy would result in a unusable community, so we apologize for the occasional limitation of artistic license for the good of the community.
Please delineate FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY HOW a post is deemed to be "inflammatory" or "offensive." The closest analogy I know of in the law for such utterly vague terms is pornography, which is dictated under First Amendment principals by "community standards." HOWEVER, when in the rare case the law deems something unclear as to whether it is protected by the First Amendment (which is based on whether it has POSSIBLE moral or social merit), the question of community standards is left to a jury of peers. Here, there is absolutely, positively, no explanation of what standards will be applied. By way of example, is it now against site policy to question site policy itself in a column or poem? Are community standards going to be left to the public, solely to the discretion of an individual Moderator, all "jury" of all Moderators, or will you always be consulted? Recently, one of your Mods ran a contest that asked why abortion is not "murder." Needless to say, the comments to that contest alone were chock full of debate and differences of position. That contest in my mind was fair, and should hardly be discouraged even though I personally differed on the principal underlying it. However, I do not see how that could not be called "inflammatory," and to some people with particularly strong viewpoints "offensive." I sincerely do not understand this new policy, how it will be evaluated, how it will be implemented, or even how it can be challenged. I again go back to the example of criticism of site policy -- are you going to consider that "inflammatory"? I love this site, and appreciate the tireless, hard work you in particular, and the Mods in general, engage in. This post is not to criticize your own or their efforts. However, I have to tell you, even as a lawyer when I read this new trolling policy I have no idea what are its constraints.
Finally, I would note that your definition of trolling is itself questionable. As someone with a background in computer science, I expect you know that trolling almost universally refers to the habit of certain individuals to spam BULLETIN BOARDS or similar forums with deliberately inciteful comments. The problem that exists there is that there is no way for all members of the community NOT to be affected by the content. This new policy, however, is aimed at individual poems, which really isn't the same thing since they never actually are viewed at one time by the entire community. To the extent there is concern the poems nonetheless are accessible to all members of AP, I think the proper response in the case of poems is for the Mods to demand an "offensive" or "disruptive" poem to be marked as "adult," not to censor. As adults, we can and will ignore what irritates. If we argue, well, argue away -- if you're doing so with a troll you should ask yourself why. If this policy were directed to the Bulletin Boards, I probably would be less critical. However, as written, it appears to be centrally directed at poetic content.
Edited on May 13, 2:51 p.m. because ''. -
manson wishes he was as ugly and furry as i am.
for that matter, so do those pink-haired troll dolls with pencils stuck up their asses (trying to keep us on-topic here).
in any case, what's new in the world of self-promotion? managed to get your ass-hat on a cereal box yet?
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You have to admit, that was a good line.
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Machismo on a string.
Look, okay, so I did a couple of pornos
At least I don't dress up like Charles Manson
effortlessly. -
i guess i need to spell "compliment" correctly or spelling trolls like me will have their way with me.
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Why don't you two go get a room somewhere.
Now I'm off to plug my latest dildo poem. -
well... y'know i've been trying to, but your people and my people, they were too busy stabbing themselves and each other in the back to settle on a date/time.
1. thank you so much for the ass-hat... you knew how much i loved it when i complemented you on how good it looked on your face.
2. i'm actually joe pesce portraying serpico, but thanks so much for the complements on my poetry.
3. the last nun i ate at the four seasons was delicious. so glad you brought it up. their chicken francais is highly overrated and the nuns get no attention. and i'll have you know that was a g.i. joe who refuses to ask or tell.
4. and i don't shave or comb my netherparts neither, you conceited porno star with your genuine paul mitchell products.
so are we banned yet?
hahahahahaha....
that was fun.
but i'm bored now.
what's for dinner? -
I thought you'd never ask.
three reasons why I despise martooni
1. he uses the ass-hat I gave him last christmas as a vulva sponge instead
2. His poetry is strong, and he's intelligent, but I can't tell if he's just perpetually drunk, or actually, Robert Blake, therefore as doc holiday would say "I really hate him".
3.When i order fresh nun ala carte at the four seasons, he sits across from me petting, of all things, his kevin doll.
4. he doesn't properly comb his beardling.
(that was a bonus treasure troll)
Edited on May 13, 12:30 because ''. -
for once, i agree with you, you irascible bastard. we may butt heads, but we both come out stronger for it. this new policy might get us both banned for having a go at each other, so consider this comment an invite to trade another round of meaningless insults over our stupid poetry so we might tempt the admins into action. this whole "troll" thing is not fair cop at all when by definition, this column could be construed as a troll since, by the nature of its existence, implies that there must be trolls on the loose at AP and leaves everyone scratching their netherparts wondering whether to be offended or not. i guess those who aren't offended are too stupid to be offended.
so let's have at it, old chap. whaddya say? -
319 views and only 11 little clappers.
Who decides who is trolling? Is there one blanket rule? Oh what a can of worms you have opened here. That's okay it was getting quiet around here anyway. -
Thanks to everyone for their comments and (ironicly) flames. I've toned down the post significantly. It occurs to me that true trolls have not been allowed in our policies from the beginning, so I'm going to remove the extra policy I had added.
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Glacian.
Excellent point.
I believe the notion of divining author intent to be flawed, but certainly the case you present where an author posted a title like “Jesus Loves You” to lure in unsuspecting believers into a profanity filled diatribe would be a stronger case for “trolling” than what actually transpired.
I have posted something similar elsewhere, and I begin with the concession that figurative analogies are not logical proof but merely illustrative.
The jihadists of 9/11 construed the Twin Towers as obvious symbols of American Imperialistic Power with the clear “author intention” of conveying world domination. Clearly they were trolling to offend and had to come down.
Theo van Gogh could be construed as having “trolled” with his film “Submission." Shouldn’t he have known that was likely to get him shot by an Islamic fundamentalist?
If as a member of this site you regularly flame other members by posting on their pages or IMing them with flames based upon your opposition of their belonging to any group (Christians, Erotic Poets, Hispanics, Hairy Nosed Wombats) then the site has a clear policy concerning harassment with blocks and ignores to deal with most issues and a site policy for banning when members will not cease abusive behavior.
As you put it your case seems to be an example of a splinter cell of the KKKristian Taliban colluding to target a particular poem’s title for leveling. The administration has aided them in the leveling and jumped on a slippery slope of prior restraint and a chilling effect on written expression.
Peace.
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You know Kevin, There are so many poems and colums on this site that offend someone or another that this whole thing you call trolling is stupid. If that is the case you should look into the writes that demean women, ethnic backgrounds, sexual prefrences and people in general. Religion seems to be a very popular target for this and it is allowed. Freedom of speech ??? Harassment ??? How do you label the fact that this is a site where poems and colums are written that are from the poets mind and opinions and not everyone is going to like or agree with some things that are said and done. I could see you comming after personal attacks, but your definition of trolling is just not on the money on this one.
Edited on May 13, 11:41 because ''. -
Shame shame shame. The world and its hideous little values have been disgusting me lately. It is too bad to see, that even on here, we are trying to please everyone. It will never happen. No matter what laws you put into place and what rules you make, someone, somewhere will be offended. What right do any of us have to say what offends and what does not? I am a bit offended by this entire premise. It does not matter. Personaly I am offended by religious poetry, but since I know this, I make it a point not to read it. Are we that stupid that we intentionally cause drama by reading things we know will offend us? Then cry about it to others after putting ourselves in that situation? Shame shame. What has the world come to when literature must be politically correct? History must be re-written so as not to offend others. The truth must be concealed so we can all remain in this false sense of euphoria. What a hideous time and place we live in.
Despair
Edited on May 13, 11:20 because 'because..'. -
This goes against free speech, artistic expression, is conservative propaganda,
and basically shows just how crippled and lazy we've become as writers and
artists. How in the hell can people hash out a debate with censorship like this in there way? If it wasn't for internet "trolls" my writing would never have improved.
If it wasn't for people unafraid to tell me what they thought of my work, my work
would never have improved to the point of being published. In my opinion, if you remove the trolls (predators) from the island, then all you achieve is an overpopulation of rats and rabbits that destroy the island in pointless consumption and over-breeding. This policy goes against nature and artistic freedom, on every possible level. It protects the retarded, affording them the right to stay stupid, while it
cripples the strong protagonists, and friction agents, forcing them out
of the formula of basic evolution. This is, by far and away? The most ridiculous
crap I've ever heard. This is exactly why there's a war in iraq right now, and not in our public school learning programs where the real war to educate should be raging.
Edited on May 13, 11:35 because ''. -
to kryspin:
it sure does.
if i piss someone off with my poem, they're free to tell me they're pissed off. and i'm free to argue my point. and they're free to argue back. that's not trolling, that's not hiding behind "free speech" or whatever you refer to as "irresponsible" artistry. i stand behind everything i've ever published (even the extremely crappy ones).
the point here is that you and everyone else should feel free to stick my lousy poem up my ass on whatever grounds you can think of. but if you try to force me to remove or alter my poem (or go crying to administration to do it for you), then you are messing with my freedom -- keep in mind that my poem is in no way depriving you of freedom: you're free to ignore it.
freedom IS a two-way street -- and censorship is a roadblock that effects BOTH lanes. -
"An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority to obey but does not make binding on itself...One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty."
Martin Luther King, Jr. Why We Can't Wait 1965
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with freedom of speech comes accountability and liability. anyone that screams free speech better be prepaired to defend their case on a much more deeper level. i think this reflects artistic responsability. we should be accountable for our posts, our writes and our creativity. to say "free speech will protect me and i'll say what i please" is just immature and irresponsible.
trolling is just that. irresponsible (although occasioanlly accidental) and a responsible writer with either modify or pull it completely. write whatever you want. post with your table and bedside manners- as what your friends and family think directly is quite different than what your classmates might agree to- let alone your online community.
real poets and real artists get the responsible artistry, the accountability and all that jazz. REAL ARTISTS are aware of it. I know when I'm walking the line, and if its too thin or worn out, I will pull or remove...or alter depending on the case. I do not feel my rights are infringed. Freedom is a two way street otherwise there'd be no traffic control.
responsible artistry...does it exist beyond the people that get it ?
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helpful
I wish I had read something like this back in 1992 when I first got on the internet (usenet). It would have been helpful as even now there are places where this happens. Kudos for a great article! I have walked in on what proposed to be a "discussion" of sorts and instead of a discussion, found that it was actually a forum (not here) really intended to generate argument. In addition even in news discussions, there's always the "devil's advocate" guy who really doesn't believe what he's saying, but says it in order to generate what CB'ers used to call H&D (hate and discontent). You can't avoid those types of people, and I know a couple of places that shut down their forums for a while until people like that found someplace else to argue. I can avoid the obvious incitements, but some of the more subtle or interior ones are harder to avoid. I guess it matters where the line is drawn between asserting personal opinion and not giving someone the power to upset you. Studying argument theory is helpful. But like Global Thermonuclear War, "the only way to win is not to play." :-)
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I just made that very same point on Tillman's piece....if the title alone offends you and you continue then, to me, your looking for an agrument If you get your panties all in a rumple over a piece-- then how very immature-- when all you had to do was click off it? Seems to me the complainers are as bad if not worse then the said 'trolls'
Write on Glacian...........
Edited on May 13, 9:59 because 'i type like a drunkard........'. -
Come to think of it, who's more of a troll in this situation:
A guy who writes a poem that is negative towards god, and has an inflammatory title like "Up yours, God!!!" or the offended Christians who read the poem, knowing full well what's in store for them, then getting all riled up about it, telling the author they'll pray for his soul and that he's going to go to hell, and then reporting him for inappropriate content? This is my personal case - the people who have essentially led to my censoring are the ones going out of their way to cause me trouble, while I did no such thing to them. If someone doesn't want to read anti-religious adult-categorized poetry, then the BEST thing to do to prevent them from reading it is to give it the type of title that will ensure they know exactly what the content of the poem is. "Trolling" would be luring them in with a nonsense title like "Jesus loves us all", and then immediately dishing out profanities with no artistic merit.
Edited on May 13, 9:49 because ''. -
I think you should have as much right to denounce something you believe in as I have to uplift it! I have read your poetry about Jesus and am not offended, and in the event I am, I just move on, maybe even write a poem that is just the opposite in referrence. This has gotten out of hand and denotes a mentallity that is juvenille! I support the freedom to write as you choose and if another wants to debate it with you in a healthy manner, why not. We are a bigger forum here than poetry site anyway. This is getting tireless Glacian. I think we may be dealing with a dictatorship of sorts no matter where we stand! Oops! Is that trolling?
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And to think I only get 6 points for the column of a comment I just wrote, tsk, tsk, tsk! How encouraging is that?
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I agree, Martooni, and I hope Kevin considers what you have to say. If you didn't already know, and as I strongly suspect, this column is in direct reference over his recent decision to enforce the change of a title of one of my poems, from Jesus to something "more appropriate". Why is using Jesus' name absolutely so inflammatory that cursing his name is "trolling", but using profanity and sexual references in other titles is not? And, as a matter of fact, despite NOT having any sexual content at all or really any adult material at all as far as straight content in a poem goes, my poem was STILL classified as adult because I didn't want to upset or offend children. I also originally put the title in German, and only changed it when it didn't get views even when I promoted it in the feature box (people probably assumed the poem was in German). If anything, the name change was intended more to simply get more people to view the poem, which it immediately did, and I haven't polled the responses but I'd say at least half or more of the comments are positive.
Kevin hasn't paid any attention at all to the fact that trolling is deliberate by definition and my attempts to offend people, as these instances have shown, are shaky at best, as I've taken precautions to keep my poem from the viewing of minors AND taken precautions to mask the title in a different language. The title simply suits the poem, and to me, as you say, this policy is "an affront to art." -
Okay kevin,
When I read this column earlier, I was fatigued, and giddy. In the light of a new day, I will address this column in a somewhat more mature manner, I think. LOL
I am not quite understanding this "trolling"??? Never heard of it until yesterday except in Fairy Tales. So, does this mean that we must be diplomatic and kind in our honest critiques, at all times? That makes way for one liner comments, I would think! I do believe we get enough of them. As I see it, the only way to deal with this is to continue in the ways we are accustomed here at AP, and comment as we normally do. I guess that would be the only true course taken to know for sure if we are in this class of "trolls" that you are alluding to. I am not sure what would be considered "trolling". This column seems blurred to me.
Could it possibly be a way to eliminate poems, comments, debates, discussions, opinions that go against site policies? For some reason that just popped into my head!
What if we responded to the poetry we read with poems against said poem, would that be trolling? By this I mean; instead of leaving a so-called "offensive" comment, we post a poem that responds to the poem read, and send the other writer a link to read that which states our criticism, is that trolling?
I have no problem when someone is harsh when commenting on my work, it makes me re-think the poem. I've had that occasional asswipe (for lack of a better word) that leaves an offensive comment (well not really). I am usually not offended at opinions. I mean, hell, we are all entitled to comment as we feel. Are we not required to leave an honest critique? Why is everything so damn personal anymore?
Kevin, your first paragraph has me chuckling inside, with that said, am I "trolling"? How are you going to determine that someone posted a comment to get a rise out of someone else? I mean, how do you get into the commentor's head?
"People get upset about the smallest things."
Man, kevin that is just what is going on here, those small trivial things that cause such a ruckus! I refer you to this poem since you haven't read it yet, on the above line of reference. allpoetry.com/Poem/1161478 The only reason I add this link at all kevin is because this issue has been addressed by myself and so many poets on this site, over and over again, and again.
"creep,
and tread waringly..."
The aforementioned is actually the new policy, no more needed to be said on that!
"Trolling is when you post something intentionally inflammatory because you enjoy the reaction from it".
Now, that is an assumption, and you know what they say about assuming! There is no validity in that statement, it is merely word against word, "he said, she said"... In "posting", do you mean, comments or writings? I am befuddled with this statement all around!
"people are offended in different amounts, and some posts will be offensive enough to be considered trolls."
What yardstick are you using to measure these 'different amounts'? I think this has to be defined, specified, or it in itself is inflammatory, are you the final judge or are MODS trained to make these determinations?
"Sensationalist poetry intentionally walks this line"
This statement kevin is an infraction of everything that is poetic and journalistic. What writer in any generation have you ever known not to 'sensationalize' even on desribing an ant, a rubber band, a piece of lint, on a grander scale, a tree... Come now kevin, what is this truly about here? Could it be that writings or writers that question the happenings on this site are the ones in which you wish to put into a box and isolate? Could it be that you are tired of people pointing out the flaws? We are human, prone to you know, amke bad decisions, and I think this is one of them! Could it also be that we should always be merrimakers, joyous, elated, when that is not the reality of life? What is this really? I need a more in-depth explaination here! I mean every newspaper, magazine, book, weekly newsprint, EVERYTHING in the world would come to a hault with a policy such as that one line! Are we being diplomatic here? Or did I mean to say 'democratic'?
"Poems in the adult category are allowed to be more sensationalistic, but are still subject to the trolling rules."
Come on now kevin, take that back! Just eliminate the ADULT category all together because we are all bratty, whinney, children around here with nothing adult about us at all. And we all know that there is at least a 30 % population that claim adulthood, and are not! They are pretty blatant about that! Why have you not dealt with that issue in some forum, some way! Geesh! What in the world?
If we ALL become mute that might be a better policy, where is the rational for this site if that happens?
Resently I read a post by a poet that used an assumed name to present her work, that may be the write the poet emacipation may be alluding to. I thought it was aimed at a certain group here on AP. I commented on the poem as such. The writer wrote back to me and explained that it was not aimed at said group, deleted my comment sent me an IM, in turn I sent one and we have not discussed the issue since. I must say if there was a "lyching" (the word is overused on this site for my taste)I did not partake. I did ask others to go to that particular column and see if they got what I did out of it. Some did, some didn't, because of the subjectivity of poetry, as is most that is written. Because of the comment left here, which sparked this particular paragraph written by emancipation an actual enlightenment has occured, see that's where I'm going with this whole litany of words here. I now am aware of something I thought was surely something else because of this honest open dialogue. LOL Will wonders never cease!
I am sure you meant what YOU meant here, but look at the varied responses. Subjectivity reigns. I hope this new policy does not stir the pot to boling kevin, because I am more that sure your intent is to make an effort to keep the peace. Honestly, I see it causing more stress for the site members, MODS and YOU, because now we are creeping, tip toeing, and attempting to always be in support of things we may not support.
Condiser the 500 or so poets that come here every day! There you have five hundred different thought processes, writings, ways of relating, feeling, believeing, how do you tell them ALL what emotions to exhibit? I've been here two years and reported three people, and that's because they cursed me out, personally, not because they did not like my poetry. Some used profanity to critique and I allowed that because their critiques were passionate. Therein lies another issue for ya, profanity is allowed, boy can that be offensive on ocassion! So, are you going to eliminate the profanity rule? Is it overridden for the sake of this one?
Personal attacks on anyone should be dealt with swiftly and with a harsh hand, not poetic musing!
Renee ♥
Edited on May 13, 10:03 because 'Corrected spelling errors, there may still be a few!'.
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Okay, enough of the thought police. AP has been a savior to me in respect that in the real world, people dont write, nor debate for whatever their reasons. When they do say something offensive, it is my choice to stand or walk away. Why is this any different?
People who come to this site, seem to be a bit more into dialogue, expressing their views, however they articulate it. Isn't this a "poetry" site. Should we all only write poems that rhyme with whitewash and censorship? I, for one am quite surprised how some have come to think they are so above the rest of us here, that they shall dictate, what THEY feel, is offensive.
Give us a break here, write and read, and take it or leave it. As in Tai Chi principle, deflection is a key. If you are so thin skinned, maybe start another site that is rated PG? And leave the adults be...
just my thoughts, I hope I dont get get kicked off for saying this...
really, is that the last sentence we are to write each time we post a comment? Its your rules that people lose points whether a comment is made on a read, or not. So, perhaps less "articulate" people feel they should comment...too many laws cause confusion and confusion=anger, anger causes knee jerk reactions, which sum up to more laws to ...
thank you for your time... -
to poison...
good point. so why flag at all?
if i say something you don't like, you're free to respond or not. if it turns into a lengthy flame war then shame on us both for wasting time that could have been better spent writing poems. but if we did get into it, at least we would have done so willingly and would have had the choice to do so. this "troll" policy would take away that choice and make it a banishable offense.
some would say martin luther king was a troll because he went marching around stirring up trouble. if we silence ALL the dissident voices here, i'm afraid AP would be a very bland, very vanilla place. which i'm sure would make certain people here very happy, since the only voices heard would be their own or those who agree with them. -
look at the confusion this has caused already. that you need to probably rewrite this and clarify.
especially since i read the link copy/pasted by abbey.
because what this says to me, is that if anyone here does not paint this site in a particual light, that post will be deleted.
that if i write a satire of this policy, it will be deleted.
can i say that abbey's copy/paste was "trolling" as a campaign for this post and policy that it is instigating argument?
and what about that copy/paste. how many hits has that gotten already for the sake of this arguement that you allowed her to do that.
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To Martooni
While I agree with you whole heartedly, I think that there is also an element of "slippery slope" in both scenarios, I tend to see your scenario more likely, because people have tried to censor my thoughts on a discussion board at my collage- but I can also see Kevin's point, that is why I want to know what the criteria will be for flagging trolls. You could encounter a poem which is genuinely non offensive but has a few choice words which make people flare up in anger over it, or you could have some one writing nothing but a poem full of meaningless and derogatory statements, I believe that the former is what Kevin has intended to flag; but the rule has the potential to flag the latter as well which would be unjust to say the least.
your poison -
To Wbiro
you should not have let them take you into a personal debate, when people decide that they haven't enough brain power to counter you logically and start to attack you personally the argument is over- you won- you don't have to answer their petty attempts at degrading you because all it really does is degrade them in the end. -
This is extremely offensive!
Sorry I had to.
As some of my work can be regarded as offensive to some people I would like you to clarify more about what is and what is not considered trolling.
perhaps you could make "sensationalist" a category so that people know when they see it from the author page that there is a fifty percent chance that they will get offended, you can filter this category from the eyes of those who have marked themselves as under 18. It would keep debates down I think- but still allow people to voice their opinions in poetic form.
I still believe that if someone takes offence at another poem, they have the option of exiting it, responding to it in a critique or writing a poem in response to it. I understand that there ARE poems which go to far but mayhap you can clarify what too far would be and who is to decide this.
Your poison -
Birchwood:
applause
Excellent point. In common law and in most non-legal settings silence if it is to be construed as anything should be construed as assent.
Given the tens of thousands of participants on this poetry site, who don’t complain about the poems in question, the conclusion ought to be that they are indifferent or assent to poet’s right to write.
By extension then the administration’s new policy goes against the vast majority of members at Somepoetry in order to cater to the less than 1% of whiny, intolerant, intellectually stunted jihadists in a KKKristian Taliban.
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I admit to be a wee bit confoosed as someone stated above-- there will always be people that are hyper sensitive-- recently I was made aware of a generalized piece and I admit it was hilarious-- the great majority of AP thought so too-- however one small group of people were highly offended. They actually insisted on being offended about the piece -- even though several others (including the actual writers) told this small group that the piece was a parody of all AP-- The writers themselves even appoligized that it was offensive to this group-- still this same small group refused to listen and a total lynching ensued. BUT the greater majority of AP thought it was --just what it was-- poking fun and finding humour in the internet world and specifically AP.
So this post here, of yours Kevin, is a concern to me..... I have often times been 'offended' here... I just click off the offending piece--- what does one do when they are at the bookstore and pick up a book they do not like? do they put the book down and keep looking? or do they burn the bookstore down?
I am all for trying to make the world a better place... for making AP a better place-- however if we cater to all the illusions of grandiosity that are abundant here,-- meaning that every letter of every piece of every poet is about them-- then pretty soon we have worked ourselves into a teeny tiny box -- and it you look far enough even that teeny box will be offensive to some.
I propose an even grander plan. How about we all be mature and if the piece is offensive then implement your fingers AND CLICK OFF IT!!
Just my two cents Kevin.
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i think it's unneccesary to make this site policy. the faint-of-heart are already able to block adult categories and to me, anyone who is morally conservative and easily offended who willingly goes to the adult section is more of a "troll" than those who post objectionable material there. to my understanding, the "adult" category is intended for the poetry and columns that are over-the-top for the mainstream categories. i personally find all the proselytizing you're-going-to-burn-in-hell-cause-you-haven't-found-jesus poems and columns and comments that permeate this site to be very offensive -- but i don't bitch about them.
what about all the threads in the boards regarding abortion, religion, politics, etc... all hot-button topics?
i agree that some post "trollish" work just to get a charge out of people, but isn't that at the heart of much of art (think mapplethorpe)? art (which includes poetry, last i heard) is MEANT to provoke emotions and promote discussion and discourse.
in my opinion, this policy is an affront to art.
and it's foolish policy.
ever heard the phrase "give'm an inch and they'll take a mile"?
the hallmark conservatives of AP will see this as a "victory" for their particular moral/social code and will only encourage them to attack other "questionable" content that is currently legal here.
you've just stepped onto a very slippery slope, kevin. -
Once someone commented on a work of mine. I did not agree with the comment at all, nor did I believe it was constructive criticism. I replied to this person that they should take the time to reread the poem slowly...along with a descriptive explanation of what setting the poem was in. The person continued to reply with the same response...over and over and over...that highly upsets me. I write my poetry for me and no one else...so I really did not need to keep hearing the same opinion over and over... I think this rule is going to be awesome.
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Yeah I get that a lot
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I think that it is unpleasant when someone that writes a pretend post then they have fun reading the replies. This is especially nasty if people have spent much time and effort in trying to help with their query.
Edited on May 13, 5:23 because ''. -
I have seen members of various groups who have joined merely to argue against the actual point of the group. I created a group myself called 'against gold membership'- I found out that people were arguing in favour of it. I joined the 'George Bush Kids' which has become a group with more people against Bush than for him.
My general rule-of-thumb is that if you don't agree with a post, post your own poem/story illustrating your point. Of course, if we had the freedom to post however many poems we wanted, this might be more likely but then, the people who insult opinions tend to be the type who want to raise trouble.
Another pet hate is people who can't think of 1 decent thing to say about a poem. Of course, one or 2 poems that's fine for but when it's all of them and the poet posts relatively few poems, it makes me wonder if they are a supporter of poetry.
Some poets believe that their opinion is the only one worth writing, again I have had such posts on my work. 'the more I read on with this, the more I find it mindless' that kind of thing is uncalled for. Yes, the whole world isn't run by people who agree with you. Do the decent thing and say 'you expressed yourself well' or 'this was well written' or something.
Anyway, those are just my opinions. In my experience, 'bad' poets are either new to writing or very young, therefore they should be encouraged. Cutters tend to be people with genuine emotional needs, which they need help with not discrimination for.
Anyway, thanks for posting
Pozo
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Well, from personal experience I can see Kevin has a perfectly good point.
Case in point-
I was 'trolled' on a generalized political piece I posted (go figure!).
"OK", I said to myself, "I asked for it, and now I must deal with it!"
By 'trolled' I mean I was personally insulted for a 'generalized' piece, in other words, rather than offering a generalized counterpoint, the attackers attacked me personally.
"Fine", I thought to myself, "I'll 'get it on' with them, politically and personally.”
So then the flamewars ensued- as we mixed copious and colorful insults on each other's intelligence, personal hygiene, looks, passtimes, and tastes, with the usual capitalist/communist political discourse.
Now, when the political debate became too much for the other side, they gradually moved the topic from political to personal, and ultimately took their personal attacks up a notch- spreading rumors down my favorites list, as evidenced by this IM from a favorite: “wbiro, soandso's are IM'ing rumors about you. Don’t worry, I've blocked them…” I told them to give me a good reason for their actions, and when they avoided the issue...
That is where I drew the line- I mean VOLUNTARILY dealing with mentally and emotionally disturbed people like that is one thing, as I was doing, but I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to be responsible for bringing said mentally and emotionally disturbed people down UNINVITED upon unsuspecting favorites, and being responsible for making their AP lives miserable! NADA!
So I reported them to the moderator, and other than one last childish jab at me personally, I haven't heard from them since.
Moral of the story- trolling begins as a pretense on a certain topic, such as politics, but eventually reveals its true predilection- that of attacking others personally, for whatever disturbed reasons. The flamewars eventually cause the disturbed party to disrupt others not involved and who are busy working on other things.
So until humanity learns how to handle mentally and emotionally disturbed people, I support Kevin 100% - insulting trollers need a certain kind of psychiatric help, and until we can charge them for our services, the sooner they're confronted by the moderators, the better!
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Does this mean you can't say ‘YOUR POEM SUCKED’? Nay.
But saying ‘YOU SUCK’ because ‘YOUR POEM SUCKED’ is over generalized, and therefore not logical, is a soft-science statement at best, and is therefore unmerited and most likely wrong, and merely exposes the weak mentality of the accuser.
Lastly, you can’t argue the point with said abuser. You might as well try to teach a beanbag to juggle, because such people are more emotional than rational, and therefore you need a moderator to tell them to go away.
Post Lastly- trolling is sometimes done unawares, so when you are slapped by a moderator when you were trolling but didn’t realize you were, (and you will be if you can get as irascible and sarcastic as me!), lick your wounds, and wear the badge of shame.
Edited on May 13, 5:20 because ''. -
Errrrrm I dunno If I like this one!
But thats just me!!
Keep up the hard work!
All my best1
God Bless You And May He Stand By You When You Need Him Most!
XxSarahxX
AKA
XxJellyBeanxX
AKA
XxSingle GrilxX
AKA
XxAlex LoverxX -
I can understand that you'd want things to run smoothly on your site and keep everyone happy, but that can never happen on a site that welcomes anyone to join.
There will always be arguments, obnoxious people and over-sensitive people and as tiring as it must be to have to put up with petty complaints and fisticuffs between members on here the over-regulating of the site won't help. It's human nature.
The diversity of this community is what makes it so interesting, I personally think it would be a shame to see it turn into a cotton-wool padded heaven.
We should come to terms with the fact that on the internet there are certain people who are out to antagonise and accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion however screwy it may be. There are ignore or block options that you can use if you find it hard not to rise to their baiting.
Stop pandering to the childish bickering and ridiculous complaints of oversensitive members. They should grow up, move on or turn the other cheek... whichever applies... or maybe develop a sense of humour! When you over-indulge kids they just get more demanding!
As far as "trolls" are concerned, if you deprive a fire of oxygen it will eventually go out.
Thanks for the time and effort you put into this place..
Kyla
Edited on May 13, 3:39 because ''. -
Hahahahahaha Surely you jest! Trolling! I know you are probably NOT JOKING! But this is really funny! So, now we have be diplomatic and kind! What!
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Kevin this is kind of vague, does this mean no more angst?
Red
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