how to critique excellence in poetry writing,
saying why it is great instead of just saying "WOW"
saying why it is great instead of just saying "WOW"
I want to offer this column on critiquing excellence in poetry writing for two reasons.
(1) I would like to see comments on this site become more constructive, more helpful to poets. Many of us strive to become better artists and craftsmen in creating good poetry. Comments like "WOW" and "Awesome!" and "Best poem I ever read!" make us feel good, but they teach little about what is excellence in our writing.
(2) In my opinion, Manicmuze (Wendy) is consistently the best poet on this site, and I want to pay tribute to her wonderful poetry ~ and illustrate why I think it is the best.
I am critiquing three poems by Wendy that illustrate what is excellence in poetry writing.
The most difficult task for me is deciding which three to select. I have read about 300 of her poems since discovering her on the day I first came to AllPoetry, and I have yet to read one that was not top-notch writing. I can't pick my three favorites, for they change each time she posts a new handful. So I've selected these three in order to write about critiquing what is excellent in a poem.
"Wet With Inspiration"
i'm writing this poem naked
it's raining, and there's a cool breeze
at the window, parting the curtains
like a peeping tom
it's night time, the sky looks purple
and i am glowing by candlelight
subtle as a shadow
painting graffiti on the wall
the ink is dripping in streams
and i'm skinny dipping in it
flooded with emotion, moonlit,
my breathing something constant
in the mirror of my reflection
my muse is dancing,
humming something about love,
—wet with inspiration
ars poetica:
The term "ars poetica" refers to a poem that takes poetry as its subject, specifically the art of creating poetry. When I find a poet who writes "ars poetica," I know I have found someone who truly lives, eats, and breathes poetry ~ and that is a definition of Wendy. Poetry consumes and sustains her. It is her passion. A great illustration of what I mean is found in this poem
It is ars poetica; it's subject is the art of writing poetry. Wendy tells us how she does it ~ she bares her soul naked, covers up nothing, dives into the pool of what inspires her and becomes emerged in it. What inspires her is expression of feelings in a way crafted to let her reader clearly see how she feels. The motif runs from beginning to end in this poem ~ words like raining, painting, ink dripping, streams, wet ~ she emerges herself into the writing of this poem completely. Her muse, her inspiration, begins to dance and hum as Wendy writes, inspired, and creates a beautiful poem. This is ars poetica, a poem about the art of creating poetry.
But what I also like about this poem is its multi-level of meanings.
This poem is about love: "my muse is dancing, humming something about love"
This poem is about sensuality: "I'm writing...naked" and "wet with inspiration"
This poem is about feelings: "I'm...flooded with emotion"
This poem is about self-reflection: "in the mirror of my reflection"
This poem is about illumination in the darkness: "it's nighttime...I am glowing," "moonlit"
Each reader can take from this poem something that touches him specifically, something different from what touches another reader. It has universal appeal, an ambiguity that lets each reader interpret his own meaning, interact with it.
Also note that this poem does not rhyme. I doubt that most readers even notice that it does not rhyme on first reading. Its meter, beat, and flow are so melodic, so smooth, that it rhymes in the mind because of its perfect sounds and rhythm. Often when I read a poet on AllPo I suggest to him/her not to worry about making "abab" or "aabb" rhymes, but to concentrate instead on flow and rhythm, on expressing honestly what he wants to impart in the poem. For those who didn't understand what I meant ~ read this poem. It doesn't rhyme. Ain't that neat!
"The Appointment"
Doctor tell me
why do the nights stir me up like this,
the room pirouettes, corkscrews,
the thunder kicks the mattress
and I walk the dark
like a scared child
crying for someone to turn on a light
Sometimes in crowded rooms
I feel out of place
like the wrong curtains
or being under-dressed,
as if the scars glow
and everyone knows
something isn’t right
I dialed you
from the big black print
splashed on yellow
on a weak morning
the day January died,
because I had turned into ice,
because the night before
I laid on the floor infant-like
in front of the fire
and did not melt
So, Doctor, tell me
did I look pathetic
in my over-sized shirt
with the hurt stains
and pain slopped on the front,
when you said sit down
and there were six chairs to choose from
and I asked, is this a test
I remember speaking of vultures,
of longing, of daddy,
you, with your clip board,
loafers with no socks,
scribbling my uneasiness
into hopscotch squares,
me, asking what I said
that you found important
Cramming my desperation
into a fifty-minute hour of purging,
wondering how many boxes of Kleenex
were stacked in your supply cabinet,
if I would even need them
—I doubted it
My malfunction came to you
hunched over, hobbling,
cramped with shame, neglect,
and worthlessness
—diminished
and I begged you
make me whole, a cure
and all you could do
and all you could do
was medicate me
until next Tuesday at two-thirty
until next Tuesday
interior rhyming:
This is one of her most profound and moving poems. It is soul-wrenching in its expression of pain, fear, insecurity, confusion, and plea for help. She is courageously vulnerable in writing this one, and I rank it as one of her finest works. It is brilliant in imagery and observations. But I want to use it to illustrate interior rhyming.
Wendy is a master of rhyme. More often than not, her poems are not "end rhymed," with the rhyme-scheme falling at the end of each line. The effect is that her poetry has a natural flow to it like an everyday conversation. Yet her poems are full of rhymes that fall in the middle of phrases, at the beginning of lines, in unexpected places. This creates a poetic beauty in the way she writes. I could pick almost any of her work to illustrate her art. This one is chocked full of interior rhymes, poetic couplings of words that rhyme naturally, placed in natural places. I'll illustrate by putting the rhymes in caps:
why do the nights stir me up LIKE THIS,
the room PIROUETTES, corkscrews,
because the night BEFORE
I laid on the FLOOR infant-like
in my over-sized SHIRT
with the HURT STAINS
and PAIN slopped on the front
loafers with NO SOCKS,
scribbling my uneasiness
into HOPSCOTCH squares
My malFUNCtion CAME to you
HUNCHed over, hobbling,
cramped with SHAME, neglect
and all you could DO
was medicate me
until next Tuesday at TWO-thirty
These are interior rhymes. They are not intrusive ~ they don't get in the way of expression that looks and sounds natural ~ yet they are deliberately present as poetic devices. No one does this better than Wendy.
"The Strand"
she imagines
if he rolled around in her
stirred slowly
toes in sand
she would thicken, turn to cream,
drip between his fingers
on his hands
stretch the moment
over August
the heat of summer
the ocean breeze
touch each other
silken mist,
then turn over, tender kiss,
please,
unbutton this
she whispers
poetic erotica:
Erotica in poetry is popular and this site has many erotic offerings. Some of it is explicit, some of it crude, some of it beautifully written, some of it sensual. But it takes an artist to craft a poem into poetic erotica. Wendy does this as well as anyone. She can write as saucy and as sensual as the best ~ and she has.
This poem is poetic erotica. By that I mean it is first poetic. It is a near-perfectly written poem with beautiful flow and meter. It has lovely rhymes within a unique rhyme scheme. Its form is soft and pleasant. And it addresses the erotic with subtly and class. Yet it is unquestionably erotic and sensual. She blends images that are tactile ~ the feeling of toes in the sand at a beach ~ into sexual sensations:
she imagines
if he rolled around in her
stirred slowly
toes in sand
She uses imagery that is not sexual in nature to conjure up in the mind's imagination something that is very erotic and sensual:
she would thicken, turn to cream,
drip between his fingers
on his hands
She uses subtlety of suggestive words to stir the erotic imagination: the heat of summer...touch each other...
then turn over, tender kiss,
please,
unbutton this
she whispers
And in this last stanza, she builds the poem to urgency in desire. The poem is unquestionably erotic, teasing in what it says by not explicitly saying it. But she gets the point across with an impact, a whisper, and even some instruction.
This is creative writing at its best, as Wendy does it so well in every poem she posts on this site. AllPoetry.com is fortunate that she calls this site her writing home. I, for one, have become a better poet from reading and studying her many poetic skills.
Thanks, Wendy!
my thoughts on how to critique excellent poetry writing,
as well as my tribute to Manicmuze
Add a comment
Comments
1 - 68 of 68
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Sure, I am a man, of course I am partial to the occasional stroking
Enough now, my point has been made, as has yours, and anyone else that piped into this wee discussion.
Let's draw a line under it and move on. Hopefully we have all learned something.
Sorry Papa Stone for caning your column.
Now about that ice cream....
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And a fine critique it is, Mr. Stone. You've chosen one my favorite poets on this site to critique, and she exudes excellence in her poetry for many of the exact reasons you've pointed out in your comments. You're as sharp as a single-tipped thumb tack in a wall of formulated cork board, Mr. Stone, and your poetry and forms of critique and commentary are among the most intelligent of any I've read on this site. Splendid work on the Manicmuze. ~ EZB
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And yes I am a smart ass
, one with a sense of humor and why I didn't take offense to "You are quite the smart-ass eh, I bet you could sit on a tub of ice cream and tell what flavour it is."
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Aw, heck, I'm a trophy whore. And a comment whore. I'll sell whatever anyone is buying. BTW - I believe it is Rocky Road, but I can't find a single fricking nut. I shall be writing my Congressman about the appalling lack of nuts in this ice cream! UB is right about a lot of things. And so is Des. And so are you. And o is, too. But, this ice cream scandal is what I am most interested in discussing. All this erudition has made me hungry. In the immortal words of Rodney King: "Damn, that stick hurts." (I bet you thought I was going to say something about getting along.) Also: I am the most right and I don't have an opinion.
Scott -
I simply threw back at you what I found on your author's page and that is.........."I strongly recommend that if you only ever read one book in your life
You keep your f....ing mouth shut"
And the reason I brought up the low number of comments is because you critted Wendy's this is a crit column. And I find it interesting that a member of this site, O, would be so arrogant as to say other members poetry is crap. Who is she to decide that? She has that right, but I don't think others take kindly to it and when you call other poets work crap, better make sure you're damn good. Very rude.
And as for how long you have been at this site, that would speak to your understanding of how this site works and what is considered a critical review. A critical review does in fact address poem structure and how it's perceived by the reader. If you, or O, in this particular instance, only wants to be stroked, then I suggest before hitting "submit this poem" you unclick the request for critical review. That's it
Edited on Sep 08, 3:21 p.m. because ''. -
Your defence of your friend is commendable.
However, your second paragraph is childish and pathetic - cackling like a hen that just jumped up on the dinner table doesn't help you gain respect.
Are you saying that unless you have been blessed by the Uber gods and have only been a user of the site for 3 weeks you are not entitled to have a view?
Trophy whore? - Is that a clique term? - Yes, you can read I have been here for a short period of time but considered myself to be embracing the very nature of the site. I have entered contests not to win, not for recognition, but for fun that and the fact 6 weeks break can drive a man insane.
And you know I am glad I have because I have come across some terrific people, and some truly wonderful poetry.
You are quite the smart-ass eh, I bet you could sit on a tub of ice cream and tell what flavour it is.
Grow up!
I am taking nothing away from Manicmuze's poetry. I just feel if you don't get something then you shouldn't assume.
Unbridled is right about one thing and this was a very useful column in more ways than one.
Thanks for the insight!
Edited on Sep 08, 3:04 p.m. because ''. -
I wasn't aware that the date I started posting here and the number of comments I've posted had anything to do with my actual work. Unless of course, there's some sort of secret poetry consortium that only recognizes work posted here... ???? Just because I *choose* to not comment on every piece of crap posted here doesn't mean I'm not actually here. Flippin' pathetic, if you ask me.
My G-d. One comment speaking my mind and you jump all over me and SG with both feet.
Whatever, man. -
Well, hell, I am going to add my nickel's worth here. Unfortunately, it is all too obvious from this string and from any study of poetry, that poets have thin skin. The column was good, Manicmuze is an artist, and the comments critical of Wendy are absolutely superfluous. If someone does not like my comment on their piece, that is fine with me. If that individual has no interest in proper spelling or punctuation, that is none of my business. However, anyone who wishes to call him or herself a "poet" needs to examine why, how, and for whom they are writing. And, for the love of Pete, if you think so little of the comment someone leaves you, then ignore it and get on with your life.
Scott -
lol funny
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Hey Des...i think i smell a jealous bug buzzing in the room
UB
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Additionally....o has been at this site since Jun 23, 2003, has only posted 41 comments and the one she posted here is the longest one so that raises my eyebrow. Perhaps she has a problem other than that indepth comment she received from Wendy.
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What I find peculiar is you felt the need to come here and criticize Wendy who happens to be a long time and very beloved member of this site.
I strongly recommend that if you have only been a member of this site since August 17, 2004, have only posted 48 critiques, have only posted 15 poems and 6 of them are contest poems, you should keep YOUR fucking mouth shut.
9 poem + 6 contest poems = trophy whore.
Desiree
Edited on Sep 08, 2:08 p.m. because 'some people are idiots'. -
hmmmm...sorry Shadowed Gold...but your comment here makes no sense. Wendy was just posting that comment, obviously, because "o" states that she was condescending in her comment. To me, she had every right...heck, a responsibility even, to post the comment that was used to call her condescending. She left one comment...it gave a "critique"...which was requested by the author. It is not Manicmuze who had the issue, but o...and it comes down to...if you don't want a critical review...you don't ask for one. Someone...anyone...me, you, whomever...giving a critical review should not be called condescending for our efforts when someone doesn't agree with our critique. If you don't want critical, you uncheck the box.
And when it comes right down to it...none of this even belongs on here...it takes away from an excellent column done by Rolling Stone...on an excellent writer, Manicmuze. That is what the column is about...and should remain.
UB
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I find it peculiar that you needed to share with the world the exact critique as posted - like you were looking for some justification - both You and O knew what was written and you could have replied without this.
I would agree, that yes, if someone asks for a critique you are entitled to give one.
What I find difficult here is your reference to that critique being helpful to the writer.
Let's look at the evidence again....
" I wonder if in this line;
"and now i see you as you are flawed . "
if you could just say;
"and now i see you as flawed"
When i edit work, i always look for redundancy or words that don't add anything... "
What you seem to fail to grasp is how very different those sentences are.
"And now I see you as you are flawed" - What this says to me is - I couldn't see you before almost masked but now in all your honesty there you are...
whereas
"and now i see you as flawed" - this just screams faulty goods.
I see no redundancy, more poignancy actually.
Perhaps the use of a comma would have made it easier for you to understand?
If you don't get something it is perhaps best to leave it alone.
Of course this is just my opinion which we are all, in our little democratic heaven, free to express.
God bless El Salvador!
Edited on Sep 08, 10:25 because 'cos gerbils are ugly'. -
When someone posts something on an open poetry site...and asks for a critical review...others assume that is exactly what they want. Advice given on wording or content is simply that...advice. Yours to take or leave. Wendy condescending? ever? i think not.
UB
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o,
I don't appreciate being called "condescending" when all I have ever done around here is try to encourage and help other writers. I looked back and read my comment to you on your poem "ghosts"... it went as follows:
"I really like this... it reminds me a lot of some of my journal writings of years ago, a very personal pouring.
I love these lines;
"i have slept through your screams and you have slept through mine. " that's very powerful... got to me
I wonder if in this line;
"and now i see you as you are flawed . "
if you could just say;
"and now i see you as flawed"
When i edit work, i always look for redundancy or words that don't add anything... it helps me tighten the poem and it adds to the impact of the line. (my 2 cents, spend as you wish :-) )
Great piece of writing, i'll be reading more of you,
~ Wendy"
In no way did this attack you or condescend. I made one suggestion and did it in a nice way. If you do not want suggestions, then say so. This was just my opinion and as i said... take it or not.
Anyway... i don't feel you are in anyway justified in "attacking" me, here in this thread or anywhere else.
Believe me, I've been writing poetry long enough to know that not everyone likes what i write and that's okay. People will give me suggestions and i'll take it or leave it... but i decide what is better/worse for the poem.
~ Wendy
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I think this is a column that should be pulled from the mothballs from time to time and set as an example of good poetry and good critting. If I could write like Wendy or you, I wouldn't be hanging out with the likes of me. I agree that the possibility of removing one word, on the advice of the critiquer can change the context of a poem, but it is up to the writer to take that advice or ignore it. Excellent excellent column RS. Keep bringing it back.
Desiree
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I don't want to seem like the odd (wo)man out here, but while Wendy's writing, her poetry is good, she tends to condescend when she comments; at least that's what I got from a comment she left on one of my poems, which essentially suggested I remove a word, which changed the entire context of the sentence, which in turn changed the context of the poem.
Not good.
And that's not to say that my ego is so fragile that it can be bruised by one pointed comment - but to TELL someone how to rewrite something is like telling Julia Child how to make coq au vin. It's just not done.
That said, though, the idea of a critique workshop is an effective one. Though perhaps not singling out one poet to learn from.
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excellent
I do agree that Wendy is one of the best poets on this site. But she is one of many. I enjoy her works, as one that enjoys the finest of flavors in a dish, she presents very wide flavor of emotions, views, and expressions in her writings.
She is very diverse in her skills, that is highly evident in her works.
A fine tribute to a fine fellow writer! -
I have just spent a very pleasant hour reading this column and I thank you all
May I just say that as a newcomer to AP and poetry I have to applaud many people on this site for the constant encouragement
Whereas poetry to me is a way of expressing myself in the relative safety of a site where no-body is deliberatly rude or inconsiderate.It offers me constructive help as regards punctuation (which is the bain of my life) but more to the point, shows me how to write poetry correctly to gain the most impact. One point I would like to make is that even though I find it comfortable to write poetry I find it extreamly hard to either praise or critisize other peoples work in words that would be expected. Flambouyant words such as superb! amazing and the like are easier not to offend and I mean no disrespect by uttering these words, just a complete ill at ease to try and find the correct form of addressing the critique. Where as I can find the words I need to use for a poem a critique compleatly illudes me.It is possibly my fear to offend and for that I apologise.
Before I close, I would like to thank you all for the constructive conversations running here, they were enlightening and positive.
Regards
cutiepie
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I found this to be very helpful and informative. I'm sorry I just didn't read the part of the erotica. I don't read erotica poetry. Her other poems were very well written. I am impressed. She is inspiring.
~*Destiny*~ -
wow...
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Very odd...i could have sworn i commented on this eons ago when you first wrote it...hmmmm...
Well, as Wendy already knows...i think she rocks like few others can! Great column, Travis!
UB
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I have actually read this before ( when it was initially posted )- but it was educational reading it again. Wendy IS incredibly talented - always producing consistently outstanding and original work of a high calibre. She deserves all the recognition she gets.
~ Sonia ~
Edited on Sep 01, 5:00 p.m. because ''. -
travis i think it is really great that you've done this
Though some might not be the heaviest of critics
(including myself) There is still always so much to be said
when it comes to poets such as wendy.
though don't get me wrong many of times she leaves me quite speechless,
Lately I've come across some really truly amazing poets on ap, i guess being gone so long back and forth i missed out on a lot, but nonetheless its always good to come back
with the others i grew to love when i was friggen 17...and still am in love with them to this day (wendy being one of them)...
I think you chose some great poems
to display her amazing talent er gift...
Quite a beautiful tribute
to a beautiful woman
..who by the way is still alive and kicking hehe
~ashes~
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I thought that your thoughts on critque were helpful and sound. The poems of Wendy's you chose are some I've never read and indeed I feel I cheated myself because I agree that they were excellent in all the ways described.
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Wendy is one of the few who I always read when I see her because her work is professional; She is a natural, the only thing I could say that would improve her writing is she needs to expland her styles; but that will come when she get bored with the way she writes, as she is now I will read any work she post because they are worth my time. I only concider four poets on this site more naturally talented then I, wendy is one.
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Commenting, as i come to realize in these days on the ap site, does both... Encourage and critique. I was taught by many people, most teachers, that critiquing is one of the best way to show improvement, as well as to give advise on the true nature or hidden message of the poem or passage. I'd like to point out my favorite critique yet. It was on one of my poems about three or five days ago. I had a thought and posted a piece called Controversy on my name and ran a very short campaign on it. I specifically asked, in my authors notes, for advice on what to do in the situation i am/was in trouble with. I got 2 critiques on that poem yet, and only one was in depth and encouraged my thought. Id like to thank the person that made that comment on my piece... im sorry to say that ive forgotten the name of the great speaker who helped me... i shall find that out. But it encouraged, and advised me to do what the possible right choice was.
Commenting and critiquing ae essential and sometimes greatly appreciated. I try to do both in everything ive ever looked at in my time at the ap site, and id have to sy the better you get, the better you feel at making somebody elses day a little more brighter. So please, Critique while commenting, advise while critiquing, and happines should come to both sides. (possibly in some twisted sort of way.) -
All well and good, if you like to do in depth critiquing, and I agree Wendy is a great poet. But not everyone wants to take the road of doing such critiques. Personaly I like to comment on what I feel from the poem, or just have some fun in what I say.
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This is an insightful article by a true teacher, a rarity in these parts on both counts. From this lesson and this alone, had I not already the heads-up, I would have learned enough about reading (and writing!) poetry to keep me rolling down the path of learning for a long time. This, now, I can bookmark for reference, in case I ever lose my way. Thank you for that.
I can't help but think this is a column that should be brought to the front again, for new readers.
It was fascinating to see the discussion this article inspired. I got my personal kick from the interaction between Dericlee and Naena, considering that, a year later, they collaborated on that massive AP Idol competition. Ya gotta wonder what's gone on behind the scenes between then and now. (And am I ever glad I'm a punctuation freak!)
As for Manicmuze, since this is really a tribute to her, yes, a wonderful discovery, as a writer and a person. Her humility and willingness to share her story, not just in her poetry, is yet another lesson.
Great stuff, Travis, and thanks again...for everything.
Edited on Sep 01, 4:16 p.m. because ''. -
HAHAHA that's what I get for paying attention!
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I can only sit and attempt to absord the luxurious feel of all these wonderful words you've wrapped around me... This is about to be bookmarked PERMANENTLY!!! These works you've shown us here are sensual, bold and encompassing...
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LOL I just came back to see. This. Yep. Someone told me you have to click View All to see all the comments. That was long time ago. Thanks RS.
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No, Lovespoon, none of your comments have been eliminated.
there are just so many comments you have to click back to
the previous comment pages to see them all. -
Then it was all worth it.
I'm ready. -
Dericlee- You made me cry. Until I read your words above, I never felt that I had the potential to be great. I just thought..I need to release what's inside me and poetry is the only way that I know how. I knew that I might touch the occasional person who had similar experience with my words, but I'd never be one of those poets that was remembered, revisited, or even remotely considered great...but I had to write anyways..it's been my release since I was 9 years old...it's a part of me...I HAVE to write.
I am truly touched by your words. I've taken them to heart, and I will try to apply them in the future. I can't say that I will always produce perfect punctuation...I'm not quite sure how. But, I will try..and I will learn. Thank you for enlightening me. I never cared to strive for it, because it was a potential I never knew I had. Now that I'm aware (but, somehow still a little doubtful) that it exists in me...I will try to hone that skill. I wouldn't want to sell myself short either..I simply didn't think that "was me".
Once again, I thank you. And I also ask you to prepare yourself. Because, now that you've opened this up in me, I will probably be asking for your help or advice quite often.
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Naena...I was once told by a master painter "anyone can paint, but not just anyone is a painter"...and he was a master-painter in the construction sense...a HOUSE painter.
How much less is just anyone an artist? To be an artist, you have to produce ART...not just produce something and claim it's art just because you say so.
Just a few misinterpretations to clear up.
Not lack of commitent to punctuation: when you employed commas, but not periods, I felt in indicated a lack of commitent to the style you appeared to be employing. There's a punctuated poem, or a unpunctuated poem. Seeing commas but no periods showed me a decision only half-made. Like you weren't committed to the style you'd chosen.
In line with this..."I want to know every single aspect of my WORDS that someone felt left my write short of excellence. "
Like it or not, punctuation is part of the language. How you punctuate your words has a DIRECT bearing on how they are understood! It's inseperable...I'm sorry, but if you want to be a poet, you need a handle on that!
The teacher said "The Principal is stupid."
"The Teacher, " said the Principal, "is stupid".
Same words, same order, different punctuation...OPPOSITE MEANING. I CAN'T exempt your punctuation while critting your words. Neither can anyone else...not and do you justice. Don't cop out on yourself...that poem showed an incredible potential, and the lack of desire to perfect the expression is robbing it...and you!
This is coming from me...the guy half of AP hates because I insist on real ART before I call it poetry...and you almost WON a contest I posted on one of the most difficult and demanding forms I know. For you to cop out and quit because of a senseless desire to divorce your words from the signposts that tell how they're to be read is a tragedy of lost potential!
It MATTERS to your poetry how you punctuate it...and it MATTERS to me that an artist with your potential won't grab that fact!
If I bore you any ill feelings about this, I wouldn't have wasted my time explaining the first time. I despise wasted potential above all other waste, and the potential I see in your work is enormous!)
The second misinterp...is your own. If you claim to want a thorough crit, and believe you can divorce this from considerations of punctuation, or of style (my point about the periods addressed both ) then you are lying to me by leaving the box checked...and lying to yourself by believing that you can HAVE a thorough crit when you want to limit what the commentor can address. You can't. Ya take the whole thing, or you're saying "I want a crit...don't tell me anythig I don't want to hear."
It won't work, Naena. You, of all people, should be one of that group who strive for perfection...and it makes me weep that you're willing to settle.
Please, do yourself justice, feed that talent and do what you have to do to make it WORK! (even if it means learning to punctuate!)
Edited on Jul 17, 2:10 p.m. because ''. -
Poetry is the absolute will to see clearly.
--I forget who said this. -
I have to say I've always loved Manicmuse, Wendy's work as well. I had her listed from the very start as my favorite when I first began here. Later after I got familiar with so many talented poets I decided not to have a favorite list.
You're absolutely correct in the need to offer constructive critique. I for one look forward to all the help I can get. After all, it's FREE editing!. And it harm me none, for I decided in the end to agree or not.
Wonderful pieces of Wendy's talent you promote here, her work is always an inspiration; poetry in perfect motion.
My style, for what I write mostly, is roughly and more at evangelizing. Given Wendy's style shown above I feel challenged to see if I can transform my style a bit in capturing more of the senses.
Thanks for your article. Well done RollingStone
~Mary O
Edited on Jul 17, 11:18 because ''. -
I just wanted to share a little something...
I remember being 15 years old, sitting on the floor in my bedroom playing my favorite songs on my record-player... scribbling the words down as fast as i could, playing the songs over and over again until I could get those words on paper so i could "see" and "read" them... before record companies put the lyrics "inside" the covers. For some reason, I felt it wasn't fair that the printed "words" weren't accessible any other way.
I began writing poetry before I could write in cursive... always kept a daily journal and had my nose in poetry books since I was a little girl. I remember the day I read "If" by Kipling, and I said to myself... some day I want to write a poem as important as that. There is no better way to learn and grow as a poet than to read other poets... it is an endless pool of inspiration.
I would write poems, then stuff them in a big boot box and shove it under my bed. Very few people even knew I wrote poetry... it was a very private thing for me. When I was 33 years old, I found a place on the internet where people shared poetry. I sat for weeks, just reading the poems, took everything I had to join-in and leave a comment... and most of the time, the comments were "that was great" ... until finally, one day I decided to share one of my poems. I remember feeling anxious and scared to death that people might not like it, or they would rip it to shreds... and yet... there was a part of me that was excited and ready to take that step.... to finally share what had stayed in the box for so long. The group I started out with was head-up by an editor and the entire concept was to "workshop" your poetry. She, was the BEST thing that happened to me... she was gentle, tactful, and always gave me something positive along with any negative comments. Not all poets were as nice, and I can remember sitting and crying because someone ripped my poem to shreds... and i took it personally. Here I was, pouring my guts out... and allowing myself to be vulnerable, only to have someone punch me in the gut... why would i expose myself to this? Because I wanted to learn, because I wanted to become more than good... i wanted the poetry to be great. It took me a while to learn something very important... I didn't "have" to use everyone's suggestions, and I didn't have to change my poem unless i felt it was the right thing for the poem. I still had the final say, I was still in control... but what harm could there be in seeking other people's opinions? I had to learn to separate myself from the poem and not be so emotionally involved... this was the only way I could sort through the critique's and apply the things that really helped the art, and discard the things that didn't. I had to develop a "tough skin" so to speak, and balance the positive comments along with the negative comments and understand that these fantastic people... were only trying to help me improve as a writer. They were spending "their time" to give me their opinion and feedback, and what a gift that is...
As time progressed, as i participated more and more and began to "get over my ego and emotions" and really "listen" to what people were offering... I was then able to "offer" something to them of more value in return. I discovered that by critiquing someone else's work, I was still learning, in fact, I was learning more and more... because I was "paying attention" to the details of exactly what the poet was doing within the work.
I began to participate in workshops and festivals in real-life... discovered many exercises that could spark creativity and with shaking knees....forced myself to stand before hundreds and "read" my poems... I remember being given 8 minutes to write a poem, then having to stand up and read it in front of about 60 people...
Throughout the years, I have read just about every poet you might find in the library... along with my interest in new/emerging contemporary poets of today. My collection of poetry books is worth thousands of dollars because I can't enter a bookstore without buying something... and I can't stand it that there is only one small section of poetry books in barnes & noble... i felt it was my obligation to support poetry, as a poet... poets read poetry... how many average-every-day people do?
As far as what Travis has said here... I was very impressed with his keen eye and ear and that he was able to point-out some of those "details" i work so hard to incorporate into my work. I am not the BEST poet by any means... All I can hope for is to someday be remembered or spoken of as "one of the best"... to touch people and make them feel... something, anything... but to get my readers to "feel".... that is all I'm striving for. To write what I know of, honestly and openly and to always give it my best shot... even if it means writing 10 shitty poems to get one decent one. The process itself is a part of me, and the words come whether i want them to or not. It is a gift and a curse somedays, but it is who I am... a poet... i play with words.
"If I read a book (and) it
makes my whole body so
cold no fire ever can warm
me, I know that IS poetry.
..... Emily Dickinson
"A poem to me, is like giving
birth... i carry it inside me
until its ready, i go through
the labor of writing it...
then i let it go on to live
its own life"
~ Manicmuze
Love to all,
~ Wendy
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This was certainly an interesting read, and a very valid point. I do find it superficial when people just say they 'liked' it. Or 'nice poem.' I think it is much more of a compliment to say why you liked a poem. Even why you didn't. Even if it is because of some reason completely off hand, such as a personal experience that helps you to identify. What bugs me is when I write about something deeply personal, maybe traumatic, and someone says nice poem. It's not meant to be nice. It's meant to convey something and express the way I feel etc. If however, it is a poem that is light it's o.k if someone just says I enjoyed this, it was funny, made me smile etc. So I think to some extent it depends on the poem what sort of comments you can leave. I am always grateful for honest feedback/critique, as I know they are merely suggestions and another's opinion. I know I do not have to take them on, or I can take some parts/or all of the suggestions if I want.I think critiquing is very useful and helps the critiquer and the writer, write better. A reader should be able to take their own meaning from poetry, and they should look at how THEY might change parts. It's always good to see things from a different perspective. So what's wrong with sharing it?! As long as it's in a diplomatic way. You shouldn't take offence at someone's opinion. After all that's all it is. They are trying to help you, not show you up.Thanks for this. I will try and say more in my critiques in the future!
-
-Dericlee..."In the end, great poetry is about giving the reader the experience of sharing the emotion that made you write the poem." My sentiments exactly!
...I first would like to apologize if I was oversensitive to your comment..or if I took it the wrong way. I also would like to thank you for quoting yourself..as I was going purely by memory.
I don't know how I got it wrong, but I do feel slightly better now. I would much rather have a lack of commitment to punctuation than to my poetry. I am not a master of punctuation..I inserted the commas merely because the lines sounded strange without them.
"Frankly, unchecking the box wouldn't have changed anything at that point...as an entry in my contest, and one that came so close to winning, I felt I owed you my reason."
I thank you for sharing this information as well. As one who doesn't really desire critiques on punctuation, I will steer clear of your contests in the future. I am not striving to join the ranks of the "master poets". I am only releasing my emotion through word to share and touch those who feel the same. That is all I desire..no more, no less. If that falls short of poetry in your opinion, you are certainly entitled to think so. I stumbled into your contest on my first venture into structured poetry. I don't believe I understood the degree to which my freshman (maybe even kindergarten..lol) efforts would be critiqued. It was more an honor than I can express, to receive 2nd place with that first effort. I didn't feel you owed me a reason why I didn't get first. I can easily accept that my poem simply wasn't the best. I guess we all just have different preferences. You would want a reason why, I would not.
"I'm sorry it seems to have offended you...but I'm frankly utterly baffled at how it managed to do so. In your shoes, I'd have wanted to know...and the statement "though I prefer they had never told me" DOES indicate to me a lack of commitment to your poetry."
I'm baffled at how, in two sentences, you can both apologize for offending me, then continue on to say the very thing that offended me in the first place. It doesn't show a lack of commitment to poetry..but a lack of commitment to punctuation.
" I want to know every single aspect of any work that someone felt left it short of excellent expression!"
I want to know every single aspect of my WORDS that someone felt left my write short of excellence.
" I'd then weigh very carefully whether I felt their opinion should carry weight in light of what I know, what they've shown me they know, and how well they understand the intent"
I did just that. I felt that your comment carried weight in the world of those who strive for perfection, and I will take them into consideration for future writes,but I will not stress on them. In the end, I was satisfied with my poem.And, as I stated above, "to each their own". If punctuation meant so much to this person, that the lack of a few periods was enough to cancel out the message and content of my poem, thus disqualifying it for first place, they certainly had the right to that opinion and choice. It is up to them to decide what they like or don't like." You decided, and I accepted your opinion. I did say that AT FIRST I was offended...I did get over it. And after reading your response above..then re-reading your comment..and reading your author's page..I feel even better about it. I may not agree with your opinion as to what a real poet is...but after reading your author's page and seeing just how passionate you are about it, I understand a little better. And knowing this, I am able to read your comment and see that (as a person with such high expectations, passion, and hunger for poetic perfection) you did leave a constructive comment.
"We aren't all 'great poets'...we aren't even all poets. Some of us just like to think so."
I can accept this as opinion..but not as fact.
"If this were a visual arts class, would you dare tell me "we're all great painters"?
No..but I would tell you that we are all painters. And I would also tell you that I enjoy several poems by all poets I've read. To me, this makes them great. To me, the fact that they put themselves out there..that they subject themselves to the wolves..makes them great. And you can not deny me my opinion.
"But if you truly believe that we should "leave the negative remarks unsaid", yeah...you need to quit checking that box. It's a lie, you know."
I'm unsure what you're claiming a lie, but if it is my lack of desire for thorough critique, you are wrong. Also, I do not check the box..it is already checked when you go to the page to post your poem. You must uncheck it, as I've forgotten to do.
In closing, I will say that if we do not like a person's poetry or punctuation, we should move on to something we do like. We should respect the poet's right to choose the type of comments they desire. And if we can't give respect, we don't deserve it.
Dericlee, I harbor no ill feelings toward you. I appreciate your poetry. And though you may or may not have an issue with my style or preferences, I do not have an issue with yours. You are entitled to them, and I respect that. Thanks! And have a nice day! Naena
Edited on Jul 17, 4:29 p.m. because ''. -
Lovespoon...see?
You thought about what you were gonna say: you were willing, also, to THINK about what was said in disagreement. I'll prefer that to any other action, even if that thinking had left you still disagreeing with me.
About the priority...I get lost in this one, cause I can't understand (my personal perspective) how one conceives the desire to write poetry before reading the works of others...yet it's clear that many do. I was in love with the sonnets of Elizabeth Barrett Browning at a very early age. Frost took me into the realms of free-form structure soon after, and I was hooked. The works of Kipling and Service left me open-mouthed and wide-eyed with absolute wonder before I was twelve, and Carroll and Poe clinched the deal: I got the check for my first published poem on my twelfth birthday, and have never looked back to wonder if I could have ever NOT wanted to be a poet.
(That sentence was a grammatical nightmare, wasn't it?)
Enough...we're taking up someone else's thread here. See ya in the other one, ok? -
Ok...on:
"Experimenting with poem structure is what great poetry is all about in the end." In the end, great poetry is about giving the reader the experience of sharing the emotion that made you write the poem.
I mean experimentation as an means to achieving the end of giving the reader an experience on big subject/universal emotion or thought. I think, we're saying the same thing. My main goal in poetry is delivering something valuable to the reader.
On... 3) "Reading is the second single best way to become a poet. Writing is the first." I disagree on the order of that prioritization: the unread poet is more likely than any other to offer me endless lines of stuff that's been done before, and done better. If he read before writing, he'd know that.
We are in agreement again. I don't see how a poet can write poetry without reading poetry of others, especially master poets. I have seen people who read all this poetry and never write one word, one stanza. These type of people can never become poets, and in fact through sheer willpower an unread poet will outdo such lazy poets who don't write. Poets who are not writing poetry are simply not poets! They are literature majors, professors or writing instructors etc.
I'd like to list it as read poetry first and then write, but some people are afraid of writing. This is why they skip reading other master poets in the first place. This is why the reject all the rules of poetry. I think poets should write above all, but right on the heels of that be reading other poets all the time.
How to say it best then? Write poetry & read poetry is the first thing a true poet does. Cloning is allowed here. lol -
I agree with you, it is important to critique excellent poetry, and explain why you liked it. Its sometimes simply that you had tears spring to eye or shiver permeate spine...or maybe the words fell from your tongue as compelled as you were to read it out-loud.
If the author has communicated something to you, then the white space at the end invites you to share your perception.
Typos kill a piece of writing and spelling takes its toll also. I always point it out and would be horrified if someone saw one in my work and didn't point it out.
This column is demonstrative of a mature and knowledgeable author, I will have to check out some of your work.
-
Certainly kicked up a little dust, here, didn't you, Stone? Before I can get to my feelings on what you've written, there's a few of your commentators I'd have to address first. (Pardon me...I'm about to become even less popular than I already am.)
***Lurie/Laura...It's not at all disrespectful, it's a convenience. To amplify on cathedralheat's response... Frequently, getting the point of a suggestion across in poetic critique is damn HARD! Especially since there is an entire generation of "poets" who disdain to study poetry, refuse to learn the language of it and claim that any and all stuff labled 'poem' is, by virtue of that lable, artistic and poetic. It is, in any field of instruction, easier to indicate changes when using illustration (since I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that you won't know what I mean if I suggest that a stanza might work better as a sestet in anapestic tetrameter with an inverted schema: show me that you know what I just said and I'll kiss your foot and apologize, but if you don't understand the words, admit that you need someone to draw pictures).
A 'rewrite' in crit is nothing more than a picture of how the offered suggestions can look if applied. When you call it 'rude', and refuse to accept it as a valid means of crit, all you're doing is being terribly rude to the person trying very hard to help...and making his job harder by insisting that he do it without the second-best tool available to him, when you've already deprived him of the best one...a pre-constructed language made to order for the task. It's not a picture of how your poem is "supposed to look"...it's a map indicating a direction in which you might find it better to travel. Thanks for your rant, though...I always appreciate knowing who will make the job of helping too hard to be worth it.
***Nam...I think it should be able to go without saying that when any poet calls another 'best', the word means 'my favorite'. Appreciation of art is subjective...and since no fifty people can whistle 'Yankee Doodle' unaimously, how ya gonna get a 'best' artist in any group? It's seldom, however, that anything that should be able to go without saying actually is able...and this I attribute to the fact that most people these days listen for what they can disagree with...vocally.
We used to listen for what we could learn. I guess life was too easy, back then?
***Irridescent: congrats on that brave admission. You just took the first step toward writing better crit. Step 2 is just to try and find out what made you say 'Wow' and describe why. It gets easier every single time.
***Judas Denied (and Nam) It's not at all infrequent in the study of poetry that someone picks out a single poet who exemplifies the traits the 'teacher' wants to discuss. (Had it been Shakespeare, you wouldn't have said a word, would you?)
***Lovespoon...mingled in there with a lot of stuff I agree with there were a couple of things that struck me as 'off'.
1) Regarding the work of more than one poet...see above.
2) "Experimenting with poem structure is what great poetry is all about in the end." In the end, great poetry is about giving the reader the experience of sharing the emotion that made you write the poem. It can be done as well, and as completely, in traditional and formal manner as in the most experimental of works. It doesn't have to be 'new' to be great...it has to reach the reader and take him with you through the feeling. If it doesn't do that, no amount of innovation suffices to make it even good, much less great. If it DOES do that, no amount of innovation is NEEDED.
3) "Reading is the second single best way to become a poet. Writing is the first." I disagree on the order of that prioritization: the unread poet is more likely than any other to offer me endless lines of stuff that's been done before, and done better. If he read before writing, he'd know that.
Notice, though...my total lack of sarcasm. I reserve that for people whose posts show me that they don't think. You clearly thought hard about this post...I just don't agree with everything you thought. If I did, I'd be you...and my wife would be really put out!
***Naena...that was me. I think you missed my point in that remark: I said that the lack of any periods, when you'd employed several commas, indicated a lack of commitment to the 'no-punctuation' style. It felt like an incomplete decision. I NEVER implied a lack of commitment to the poem or to poetry! (I dislike being misread, but I detest even more strongly being misquoted!)
Frankly, unchecking the box wouldn't have changed anything at that point...as an entry in my contest, and one that came so close to winning, I felt I owed you my reason. I'm sorry it seems to have offended you...but I'm frankly utterly baffled at how it managed to do so. In your shoes, I'd have wanted to know...and the statement "though I prefer they had never told me" DOES indicate to me a lack of commitment to your poetry. I want to know every single aspect of any work that someone felt left it short of excellent expression! I'd then weigh very carefully whether I felt their opinion should carry weight in light of what I know, what they've shown me they know, and how well they understand the intent...but I'd want to KNOW!
Here's a tip for future reference: when I judge a contest, I judge EVERY ASPECT of a poem. It's possible that a superb message may overcome a stylistic glitch of that magnitude...but don't count on it. It has to be a superb message, superbly and poetically expressed! We aren't all 'great poets'...we aren't even all poets. Some of us just like to think so. If this were a visual arts class, would you dare tell me "we're all great painters"?
I don't think so. Poetry is an art...and we aren't all artists. But if you truly believe that we should "leave the negative remarks unsaid", yeah...you need to quit checking that box. It's a lie, you know.
***Frequent Seas..."We must however, guard against stifling the creative spirit, as naturally learned from doing... by feeling we have to analyse every last tit and tittle of punctuation, word usage, form, and the like..."
I'm baffled again. This is poetry: we don't have torches and steel, brushes and paints, clay and wheels and chisels and stone...we have the language. That's all we get.
How can anyone even consider being a poet and not consider it the highest priority to learn how it's used?
Now...the article.
(Yeah, Stone, it's finally your turn!)
What you mention enjoying in this unrhymed example...the fact that you don't (or hardly, anyway,) notice that it doesn't rhyme, is also the aspect that I find most exemplary of good rhyming poetry. I think that, in the best poetry, the structure is invisible: it reads as utterly natural speech, and if there is rhyme and meter present, one finds that it feels almost accidental...the poet speaks in that structure as if by sheer coincidence. I hadn't considered that the thought might transfer to unstructured poetry: thanks for that.
I've got my 'issues' with free-verse: it is a very rare piece of unstructured poetry that strikes me as truly poetic. This isn't to say that I don't admit the value of free-verse...far from it, and the artist who shows me poetry without rhyme and meter has just impressed me beyond measure. The free-verse poet voluntarily lays aside the most common and useful of the tools of poetry, and this, far from making the job of writing poetry easier, demands of the poet a far greater degree of expressive talent than required while employing those tools. Few manage to impress me in that arena...but those that do, impress me highly. Those who write exclusively in that field seldom manage to raise my eyebrow: most do it because they think for some reason that it's 'easier', and have totally missed the point of poetry.
Your remarks on internal rhyme are valuable for the learning poet, though I'd mention that, for effectiveness, internal rhyme has a greater need to be what's considered 'perfect rhyme': near rhymes, sight-rhymes, slant rhymes and the like are more easily appreciated and grasped as end-rhyme...they get lost in the middle too often.
I agree with Wendy...when I'm at a loss for what to write, when the words just won't make poetry, I write about poetry. (my own ars poetica is unlovely, angst-driven, frustrated moanings, for the most part...but yeah, it works!)
I appreciate the warning that the upcoming poem was erotic: I passed. It's a personal thing...given that the true and only real purpose of poetry is to enwrap the reader in a sharing of the emotion with the poet, then the purpose of erotic poetry is that the reader share erotic arousal with the poet. In my personal world view, that would be as unfaithful as cyber-sex. I don't extend that moral conviction to anyone else, and this is not a condemnation...it's an excuse, and an explanation of my inability to address the work: sorry.
Hey...I've left a novel here, I see. I get mouthy. I want to close with assuring you that there ARE those in your audience who see a real value in this article, and wholly approve and endorse it for content, style and manner of address.
Nice Job.
Edited on Jul 17 because ''. -
Wendy IS the best on here..from what I've read...
People will be reading her when we are all long dead...
She's that good
Just my opinion x -
Well, Hello all my fellow poets and friends;
This piece has casued quite a stir I dare say. In reading through the article (for lack of a better way to say it) there are good points and bad points, but the writer did say that it was his opinion and comments being told. Granted Miss. Wendy may or may not be "the best" so to speak, I am not debating that nor do I wish to. Every poet on here is an excellent writer. Depending on how one looks and feels at any given time will affect the feeling of the poems impact on said person. But I think that the main objective with this was to better inform us (us meaning as commentors) how to better critque other poets. In order for writers in general to grow it is important to give diretion that they can possible use. I am guilty of using "WOW", AWESOME, etc. But I do try to at least give a reason as to why I have said that. I used to be a judge for the forsenic team giving debates and such, and my biggest pet peeve with this was when a few of the judges used to many words as to make the comment unreadable and over empahized the weaker aspects. Critqueing when done correctly will lend advice not only to the poet has is critqued (sic) but also latter readers as well. I hope that I have made sense of this correctly and not justr rambled on and on. I also wish to apologize for my misspellings and typos, I am possibly one of the worst speeler on the face of ALLPOETRY.
But anyway all in all I learned something from this and I appreicate the fact that someone cared enough to share, that alone deserves a pat on the back, thank you
peace be with & blessed be;
shaggy wolf -
I just want to say...
We must however, guard against stifling the creative spirit, as naturally learned from doing... by feeling we have to analyse every last tit and tittle of punctuation, word usage, form, and the like...
New, and fresh ones can become overwhelmed with the mechanics of a thing, and lose the facility and confidence they may have had...
Therefore... I think that with a site as large as this, with such large numbers of participators at all levels of expertise... that those with less formal expertise, not be encouraged to strike out into 'teaching' territory... that their comments should be regarded truthfully for what they are... hopefully honest, meaningful at the core of what they mean... and be left at that...
Anyone with deeper and more concise comments beyond pure appreciation, and simple criticisms of form and content... will also be heard by virtue of what 'they' say, as well.
Edited on Jul 16, 7:21 p.m. because 'spelling'. -
I can't claim to have read all of Manicmuze's poetry...but those I have read were fine poetry in my opinion. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion that Manicmuze "is consistently the best poet on this site". We must keep in mind that this is only an opinion. Though I will not state ANYONE is the best poet on this site..I will say that Gecko, Lurie, and Darkheart appeal to my tastes the most...that is my right. We all have different tastes and different goals in our poetry. Some long to achieve the perfect meter and rhyme..to become masters of structured poetry. And some just long to put their emotion and experience to word in a way that is satisfactory to themselves. Some people care more about whether their poem touched the reader, than if they misplaced a comma. Some want to be critiqued on every last detail of meter and punctuation...some don't. I believe there is a little box to check if you desire such critiques, and the right to uncheck it if you do not. Either way, we should respect the poet's decision. If a thorough critique is not invited, then I suggest that your comments states why you liked the poem, how it touched you, and what your favorite parts were.
Personally, I believe we are all great poets in our own right. We all open our hearts and souls through word...it's only a matter of who can hear the words our hearts and souls speak.
I've always preferred rhyme..but am also able to appreciate free verse. I only recently began to dabble in the structured forms of poetry, and I am enjoying it. But, I find it rude, untrue, and a tad self-righteous to label someone as a bad poet..or even not a "real poet" because they choose not to explore nor master structured poetry. I find it a shame that some receive negative comments for such reasons. I pity those who leave them. And I find it a loss to this site that some poets actually leave after receiving these harsh words. Some may not like, understand, nor respect the non-structured forms of poetry...but I, and many others, do. I believe this site isn't here only for writers of Pantoum and Sonnet...but for poets in general.
Basically, the poet designates the kind of comments they desire (be it the type seen above or just a "hey, good job..I liked this line in particular"). We should leave comments under the guidelines requested...and leave the negative remarks unsaid.
Thanks for the venting space.
Naena
Edited on Jul 17, 7:44 because 'I misquoted someone'. -
I agree with lovespoon. I cannot say anymore than what he has already said...and sometimes, it gets like that too...smiles...Darianna x
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Ok. Lots of things discussed. I'll go down the line:
1. "I declared that it is a subjective piece in stating this as one of my purposes." This is troubling statement. Therefore, I'd agree with Nam's comments. If you're going to post a piece for us all it should have some universal appeal. Post not one poet's work, because three poet's work would persuade more.
2. Experimenting with poem structure is what great poetry is all about in the end. There is a whole genre of middle rhyms. Rhyming the middle word with the ending word of the same line. The forms of today were experiments of the past decades of poetry. Explore.
3. Wow! and Awesome! Don't add depth to a person's poetry. These can be only quick introduction statements of how you like someone's poem. Then one should cite a few details. Those details can be positive or negative. Being specific helps the poet grow.
How to be specific? Five ways. (1) Pick out the main items, copy and pasted into comments. (2) List the whole poem and go line by line with a comment: ok, good, nice imagery, interesting idea, good alliteration .... (3) Try rewriting the poem in bits and pieces where it needs work. For example, showing how line breaks before the thought is complete create suspense in the poem. Or showing how if the wording was reversed or one stanza elminated they poet might get to their point faster and more clearly. Write a similar line using different words. Mind you these are only suggests and recommendations to the poet. The poet takes or leaves any suggestions they want. (4) If you know poetic terms use them. This helps new poets to understand that your comments are not just arbitrary/fickled choices selected out of thin air. There is some purpose and history behind certain poetic techniques and terms. I admit these four ways make critiquing harder for the critiquer and the poet but it is perhaps the only sure way growth can happen. (5) Suggests or recommend poems similar in theme and subject matter for the poet to read. I've seen lots of erotica poems on this cite. Sometimes I suggest they read an anthology of erotica poems from the past. It is helpful to suggest poems, authors, books if these are ready at hand, or on your mind. If not get back with the poet. Reading is the second single best way to become a poet. Writing is the first. Either the poet goes through these five methods themselves, on their own, or someone helps them along these five paths. (Warning: Be prepared to loose a few friends if you employ this method, and contest too. This method is only for those who are trying to help others with their poetry, not win a popularity awards.)
4. Critiquing without diplomatic skill is poor critiquing indeed. If you lack tact, no matter how sage your advice, it will not be accepted or accepted like salt. How to improve your tact? I dunno, read other critiques. Say things in manner you would want them said to yourself. Personally, I try put on my Poetic Mr. Spock hat when critiquing. Best thing is to realize your trying to help the poet, not boost your own ego by critiquing. It is helpful to realize critiquing is a personal trust, where the poet being critiqued is allowing you to train yourself in the finer points of poetry as well. Another helpful method is to say: "If I wrote this in stone and it would be around for 100 years, would I like how I worded this?"
One way to accomplish your goal: (1) I would like to see comments on this site become more constructive, more helpful to poets. Would be to retitle this piece and expand it with new introduction and bring in 2 more poets work you like and enjoy.
Edited on Jul 16, 2:12 p.m. because ''. -
Very helpful indeed
Hi Rolling, in my personal oppinion, the information you and Wendy have volunteered in this column have been extremely helpful to me.
I have been writing poetry myself for just over a year, and have only just recently began to write more seriously. I, like Wendy, also believed poetry was much better if it rhymed rather than if it was free verse. After suffering writers block and many frustrations, (grrr!) I couldn't understand why I was struggling - especially after having been on such a poetry roll. But now, after reading this helpful information, and also being encouraged by another poet by the name of Hook, I now feel comfortable trying out free verse and playing around a bit with my poetry. Time to release the chains I think and have the courage to write some REAL poetry...
Thanks for opening my eyes,
enigma
Edited on Jul 16, 12:25 because ''. -
I have learnt a lot from this column and the remarks by Manicmuze. The three poems that you chose were fabulous and your critique helped me to appreciate them better. Thanks
Krishna
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Great column, yes, but biased in a way. I am not referring to myself, either. Nam did/does have a point. I would say pick your three faves if that is possible and use two poems each by them. It would be more fair and it would save the feelings of the more sensitive lot on the site by knowing that you did not pick just one person to say that they were good. I would never be so rash as to say that there is only one person I hold in such high esteem on this site, or in books(published poets) for that matter. Then again I am terribly indecisive. Can't decide what socks I want to wear for the day and they're all white. I appreciate what you said here overall and please don't think I am one of those egomaniacal twats that may have gotten their feelings hurt in reading this. I'm not. * licks *
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Many of Wendy's poems tend to make me want to laugh and cry all at the same time. Her writing is absolutely brilliant! I really enjoyed reading this "tribute to her" and how to critique poems. It can be very difficult to critique on some poems. You don't want to be too critical, but you want to push the writer to grow as a poet and also show what "you" get out of the read.
I am thriving to be a better poet and a better critic. Thanks this has been helpful. -
Well I for one find this very interesting and am glad you posted it. Thanks so much.
Carrie -
I am guilty for being the poet who always describes great work as "wow"...Just sometimes i am at a loss for words because the piece was so exciting and riveting...ya know? But thanks Travis, this helped me out alot...
Lynn -
IN response to Lurie's comment about "rewriting" another poets poem. It's a style of critiquing that I've seen done in more workshops than you would think. It's not meant to be "I think you should change it and write like this" instead you should see it as a way to show you new ways to approach things. Sometimes there's something that someone else does with your words and you see a new way to play with what you created. It's all subjective just like critiques...you take what you can from it, if you can't get anything from it...just say "thank you for your input" and move on. Don't be offended if someone decides to show you new ways because as I tend to say...when we critique really what we're trying to do is make you write like us anyway lol.
Great column Rolling :-) I hope a lot of people read this and try to broaden the way they read poetry on this site. -
I'm thankful for this insightful piece. This is my second day at allpoetry, and not only is this information on critiquing useful and encouraging, it is also a good way for me to be introduced to a talented poet. Thanks!
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I think that many different poets, for different reasons, can be the best poet you read at any given moment.
Wendy is awesome, always has been in my experience. She puts a lot of thought into her poetry, and is one of a small group that really takes the time to edit her works and make them better after she writes them.
I personally, don't do that. I am not writing for publishers or anyone but me, but that's just me. I can respect all the work she puts in, and the poetic talents he has.
I think the way you wrote this and pointed out the different aspects, subjective or not, was really good, and does actually help the reader to see different points in her poetry. Makes it clear the distinction between this poetry, and maybe their own..and gives ideas in how to make their own poetry (maybe not better) but ..different. Gives good ideas, and inspires a new thinking in writing technique.
Really awesome, Travis
Much respect to you
And to Wendy.
Thank you. -
saying who is the best at anything is certainly subjective, david, so you have some valid points here. I could have titled this piece "Critiquing Excellence in Poetry Writing Using Manicmuze As One Example." I agree AllPoetry has several excellent writers among its membership. I considered the risk in posting this as it is, because most of us poets are sensitive artistic creatures and we have egos. however...
I assume that when, in the opening of this piece, I clearly state "In my opinion, Manicmuze (Wendy) is consistently the best poet on this site, and I want to pay tribute to her wonderful poetry ~ and illustrate why I think it is the best," at that point anyone who feels they will not be helped by reading this has received my signal to stop. I declared that it is a subjective piece in stating this as one of my purposes.
I disagree that one can not learn about critiquing from studying a single poet's work. and I think a dialogue about critiquing someone's work leads to poets learning how to improve their own writing. therefore, I disagree that this piece is not a "helping tool."
but, to quote mark twain, "difference of opinion is what makes horseraces."
thanks for your thoughtful input.
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5/10
Manicmuze is a great writer, but, she isn't the best. Actually I don't think there is a best on this site. There are a list of people that are really great poet's. But, none of them that I would consider to be the best (including myself).
This, to me, seems like you are praising one writer. And you are classing why you like this one writer. That is all this is, this really isn't, to me, a 'helping tool' for anyone. Not in my opinion.
A helping tool would be say if you picked 3 different poems by 3 different people are critiquing those individual poems and showing the differences between them. Not, putting them down or anything, but showing why and why not -- makes the individual poems great and not so great.
That would to me be 'critiquing excellence in poetry writing' but, then again, this is just your critiques on 1 poet.
So, I don't really see this as a helping tool. Since, well, what I said above.
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I have something to add here....Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's rude and inconsiderate to rewrite another poets work? I mean come on...critiquing is one thing and usually, muchly appreciated, but to rewrite a poem in the comments! I had a poet, a few years back rewrite one of mine and repost it to show me how my work should look! That is taking things way to far! And recently another poem of mine was rewritten in the comments. I am sorry if I am wrong, but I would never consider doing that, it shows a total lack of respect for the poet and his/her original works. How can they be original to that poet if someone else rewrites them.? Critiquing with tact is a good thing, but rewriting another persons work is ditasteful! Now that I have vented...:) Thank you for putting up with me rants! Respectfully...~Laura
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On writing erotica... i think the most important thing i try to do is to be somewhat subtle... do it with class, tastefully... and appeal to both sexes. There's such a fine-line between erotica and porn... same as there is a fine line between a real love poem and a hallmarky sappy love poem.
There are so many ways to write sensuous poetry without using bad language or explicit images, body parts, etc... there are ways to turn people on if you can stir something within them by painting an image that "resembles" sex and shows a deep level of intimacy, a vulnerability. What i find the most challenging about it, is to be able to pull it off without the reader knowing what hit them, until they're sitting back in their chair saying "whew"... and they still aren't sure why...lol
Just my take on it :-)
~ W -
What if all i can say is "WOW", "Awesome", and "Best column I ever read" ? lol
You, my dear friend... have touched me deeply with this, and the fact that you are able to see, notice and appreciate the little details I put into my poems means more to me than anything.
There are certain things I do deliberately when I'm writing that often times go unnoticed, but you have a keen eye, and a sharp ear and it is comforting to know you are paying such close attention.
When I began writing poetry, I thought it had to ryhme, and I wrote a lot of poems with end-rhyme, thinking that is how a poem should be written. Then I got bored. So, I decided to play around with the rhyme and toss it in where it wasn't predictible... and where it "sounded" right to me, rather than forcing it to rhyme at the end of each line. Once, I started, I couldn't stop... and the rhyme-thang just got more and more fun.
By doing that, it opened up new opportunities with line-breaks, and stanza breaks... and that's when I figured out that the poet has more control over when the reader breathes and pauses... the poet also had control over how the poem accelerates or slows down... where the emphasis is... just by paying close attention to where i put the line-break or the stanza break it can make all the difference in the world as to how the reader reads it... and my goal is to get the reader to "hear" the poem exactly as I would perform it. It also adds to how the poem "looks" on the page.
As far as ars poetica... i think i write poems about writing when I can't seem to write anything else. It tends to break the writer's block, get me back into it so to speak. Plus, I just love words and the creation process and think that other poets can relate to "how" we create, the way it happens to us, rather than us making it happen.
I have more to say on this travis... will be back :-)
Love ya,
~ Wendy
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I agree with Birch, and think there is much
to learn.
This was a revealing lesson,
especially informative to this amateur writer.
This is why All Poetry enjoys the following
it deserves.
Thank you Travis,
RR
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I feel a better writer for having read this, Travis. Thanks.
And, of course .. thanks to Wendy, too ...
and a handful of other fantastic poets on this site
(I throw you in that bunch)
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