(ignore this little --> I can't get rid of it- it is just another AP glitch to work around...)
I just read a poet's lament over her first collaboration, and the trouble it brought her.
I could not help but leave a comment, for I estimated that I've done about three hundred or so collaborations/derivations/responses with other people here, maybe more; so this is a column that rose from my comment there.
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Problems
As for my particular experiences (and there have been too many to count), I'll list three main categories of problems I've encountered here.
Problem #1: Love
In the beginning, my collaborations were primarily romantic, so love was the problem- the heart doesn't know any better. Every problem you could ever think of concerning 'love' happened. Stupid, blind heart! but then that's how Mother Nature intended it- how else is our species supposed to reproduce? Our overly-large brain just gets in the way... lol
Problem #2: The Post-Collaboration Relationship
Once one realized what was happening with the heart and learned to foresee and head-off those problems, the next set of problems dealt with the euphoric high of collaborating- it of course cannot be maintained in the relationship, and it is usually interpreted that the relationship is somehow breaking down afterwards, which it isn't, but such a thing can become a self-fulfilling prophesy for the new and unaware.
Problem #3: Personality Deficiencies
So... once THAT was realized, I had little problem, for the remaining problems were personality-based, which we are used to dealing with on a daily basis (both our own as well as our collaborator's, it is important to mention). It is this kind of problem that the lamenting poet was lamenting about, considering the trouble she was describing- an issue not on the strength of the post-collaboration relationship, nor on any issue of the heart...
(I then rambled off topic, and added that I can get along with anybody, and maybe that played a part in my continuing to collaborate, although I mentioned that pomposity and pretentiousness really piss me off in some cases, but even there we as writers are here to observe, feel, and write, so I did mention that I do have my share of rants and rags on (and with) certain deserving people in that regards- makes for fiery writing exchanges, but for me that doesn't matter- I'm the type to get to the bottom of things and then do something about it... then I caught myself rambling off-topic, and got back to rambling on topic again... ramble ramble...)
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Solutions/Conclusions:
The lamenting poet suggested an initial agreement, and keeping records and drafts and whatnot.
Two points on that:
First, that just kills any spur-of-the-moment inspiration, and all of the romance and heart in the endeavor. It is over right there. Dead. Done. Might as well part ways and head to the courtroom where you belong, you shouldn't be writing poetry.
Second, it is a given that if a penny is made on the piece, then the penny will be sawed in half and each half framed and mounted on each collaborator's walls. That 'penny' would exist in an egotistical imagination only, however- for statistically speaking, let's face it, and especially on a beginner site like this (of which I will be a happy perpetual member) the odds are small that any work will garner the collaborators any significant income (a magazine spot for example will get you about $30, whoopie, you can have it, I have a decent day job). This implicit agreement and the least bit of generosity leaves the collaboration open for pure romance and spur-of-the-moment poetic/philosophical inspiration, which is essential to capture for a good piece, collaboration or not, for writing is not about words, it is about human spirit (and why do so many 'poets' miss that point, I wonder...)
Maybe it's the way I go about the whole collaboration thing, I don't know- to me, it is a purely artful/life endeavor, and the result is a piece of art, or even better, a piece of life, I don't see it as a commodity. Maybe that is the problem right there- if you are thinking 'commodity', you are through even before you begin.
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So there it is, my little blurb on collaborating. What is it worth? You'll have to measure that by the amount of collaborating I've done, and continue to do. (and I was speaking 'worth' in wisdom, and not dollars, it is worth noting).
In the end, I still have to agree with the lamenting poet's sentiment- that collaborating is asking for more trouble and riskier than writing alone... but to me, it is only stating that death is less trouble than life.
on the troubles collaborating can bring...
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I am normally use to reading your wonderful poetry and decided for once to pop down and read something different. Forgive me if I am a little confused with all this colloboration stuff, but it is not something that I have done before outside of a contest, and that ran so beautifully. I don't seem to understand the problems you spoke of. Perhaps it is how each different person views the idea being written about and need to express their views. I found the comments quite intriguing and enlightning as well. Your piece seems to have really got people going and they certainly were going to have a say in the matter, which was really great because it allowed people to aire their views and see others doing so without competitiveness which to me seems to be what the colloboration leads to if I am not mistaken. Your many trials of colloborating with others has really taught you much and I just wonder how you manage to do it so often? I don't think I could do it myself, but I do really enjoy reading what people manage to come up with. Forgive me if I sound like I am ranting but as I said, I was somewhat confused by the whole thing. I will of course return here to read this again as i think it has much to say, and the comments that followed added to the genious of your piece. Thanks so much for sharing.
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There are only 2 reasons for one to collaborate:
1. Boredom
2. Sucking in general
I once collaborated. We were camping and Johnny took a piss...
An hour later while I was taking a crap, I smelled Johnny's piss.
Later, the two together smelled like a tiger had shat and came, by.
So we called our poem "Le Tigre", and then made shirts
to commemorate the day. The day of the animal poe-eats.
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I find myself with a blank mind, meandering, just before a collaboration inspiration with someone hits, then I take the lead... I seldom plan and schedule them (a noted exception is my erotic collaboration 'Rendezvous at Eleven' in which our rendezvous was actually comically skewed by timezones, which I wove into the piece...)
I use speed and intensity to 'capture' the (usually fleeting) interaction (as in my latest 'guy angst' collaboration with aychellus, 'Madness Upon the Male Antennae')... so that would most closely be covered by #1. Boredom
blackwidow77 once proudly showed me her collaborations with you when her and I were on the subject of erotic collabs (while I was still on friendly terms with her for those first five minutes)- I classified them as 'sadistic, destructive mind-fuck competitions'... lol my relationship with her went quickly south after that... -
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Amen.
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i could go on a ramble against the complaining excerpt but i chose not to. it seems as if the complaining side is only viewing some preset method of collaborating, i don't know, but that does seem to be the case. although, i think too some people collaborate and do not even realize. anyways, interesting views.
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yes, we of all people know there is no preset method to collaborating... and of all the troubles (and rewards!) thereof...
for onlookers, exhibit A: http://allpoetry.com/list/26461---SwtAsWine--FallingSideways-
I guess I should do a piece on the rewards collaborating brings, and the advantages thereof in literary/philosophical terms... but something tells me that will require a collaborative effort...! -
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ha, perhaps it would. However, I just wish more people understood that collaborating isn's a sawed in half piece nor does it have a preset template, it can merely be an exchange of ideas that flow together from a conversation. I have had intellectual conversations with people and I have found that when people are explaining something they are passionate about, just by them trying to convey things in a vivid manner for others to understand, to me it sounds like poetry that was written subconsciuosly
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all subject to the moon and stars, of course...
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the conclusions on your first point ie the heart is that how you really see love? and your second point reiterates your cynicism regarding the pitfalls of such a relationship, on your third point you labour to emphasize this is not a question of the heart but the way you explain it sure sounds like it is, on your fourth point i agree with debate making for firey , creative exchanges but isn't everyone a little guilty of being pompous and pretentious at times especially writers. i agree with the two points you make thereafter wholeheartedly but the final "death is less trouble than life" to compare that sentence to a collaboration troubles me
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Ah- you were being off-topic, didn't realize... yes, those 'life observations'... I'll have to agree, quite disturbing! but based on thought, experience, and observation...
The heart is blind, that's well documented... I'm not sure as to what pitfalls you refer to- the euphoric letdown maybe? That is from painful experience/observation/reflection, also many times over... I'm assuming your third point refers to the poet's particular trouble, which I didn't specify, and which I classified as not being of the heart, and it wasn't- the matter was accusations of plagiarism (and I don't know the details, but that is not a matter of relationship or heart)... on the fourth point I'll have to agree and disagree with you, few people are pompous and pretentious at heart, but writing an occasional good piece may bring that out in us from time to time- we all have wild imaginings and 'test where we are' in the literary waters, but after finding out, that's where we separate- most of us don't go on pretending, unless we are using it as a deception tool to gain us something (if only for self-assurance, but it is usually for domination over someone, sad to say- reproduction competition rearing its ugly head again) or in exploratory jest...
The death/life analogy- a bit extreme, but I am making a point- between the nature of writing alone and with another- be prepared for dealing with life when collaborating...!
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wow, has your life experience taught you that people are so shallow and underhand, when did you get so cynical ? and how do i avoid becoming the same, while i agree with some of what you say i feel saddened that a keen mind such as your own could have come to such a conclusion
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maybe you misread the column- what sad conclusion are you referring to, pray thee do tell me! Yes, the complaining poet did experience the shallow and underhanded, and became cynical, but me? Where?! (and again what sad conclusion?)
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As a well known poet of whom we are both acquainted once said,
"Collaboration is like wearing each other's underwear."
LOL
Paul -
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did she say that?! lol she did tell me she never collaborated before, and I teased her that I had a virgin on my hands... lol we never did in the end, for I could never 'connect'- she had a barrier of ingrained insincerity... it was like the topic of marriage, I asked her if she ever was, she said, "No, no man will ever control me." I responded, "Gee, I thought it was a mutual gift..."
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Yeah, it fits the known profile huh.
Concerning committed relationships I would pose this question:
Given these options, force-rank the following choices as to what you think is the most truthful:
The most healthy, committed, loving relationship includes:
A. one partner giving and one partner taking (i.e.: to one degree or another, one is selfish and the other giving)
B. both partners taking from each other.
C. both partners giving to each other.
Technically, there is no "correct" answer, but I bet many of the respondents to this query would take a surprising amount of time to answer. When someone says, "no man will ever control me" they just don't get it and probably never will. They're in another world.
Paul -
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Even though I've been married twenty-three years, I'm not qualified to answer that question... lol (though mine has been A, partly out of personality nature, and partly out of choice)
but I will say that, after jarring 'her' with my response, I had her at the altar... and that's where we left off...
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I agree
collabing is not for the romantic at heart, and to deal with idle,who gets what,now what the hey is writing and learning to be poets as two wants to be associated...
I used to do collab.... contests, but found it was harder to sort out who gets the points and as we know the one that is first on poem is the receiver of both...
fair that the first should send the others part of awards? if agreed upon, loosing friends? over meager crap is not worth real loss ...
so there is my 2 cents worth, thank you for pursuing this issue...
Linda
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