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A few notes about Neo-Formalist poetry.

On my web site, I categorise myself as a neo-formalist poet. That needs a bit of a gloss. It's simply a point of reference. What is neo-formalism? Has it any place in modern poetry? Does all this really matter?

On my web-site I label myself a "neo-formalist" poet, having stuck the label on myself before anyone else can do so. I'm probably atypical - a friend just refused to use the n-f term of me and said I was "Marshalline". Well it's difficult for me not to be that! Here's my self-definition from the web-site:

 

"I am best known as a neo-formalist poet, though I dislike the term. It does not mean that I think the clock stopped at 1900. It means that I am not afraid to use form, or elements of form, with which to make poetry. I write all kinds of poetry in fact, from the most formal to the most free. Both forms and free verse make good servants but bad masters, and my aim is to take whatever elements I need to say what I have to say. Nothing illustrates this better than my attitude to writing haiku, which I see as a natural and momentary balance between discipline and freedom."

 

I could have said "forms, free verse, and everything between or even beyond". 

 

I accept, broadly speaking, the definition of neo-formalism as given here by the Academy of American Poets, and I note the criticisms referred to. Ira Sadoff's apparently comprehensive critique (The American Poetry Review Jan/Feb 1990), however, leaves a lot to be questioned. I'm not going to tackle the whole thing, but I just need to get one or two salient points off my chest.

 

Sadoff's point about Blake's attitude to vision in poetry, that "vision is neither theme nor content: it inheres in the dialectic between language and perception" is a point well taken. It is something which needs to be stated about poetry as a whole. There is plenty of visionless poetry in the world. If, as one ought with any art form, one widens the definition as far as possible, then the worst form-less poetry and the worst formal poetry - the most visionless of either - are contained within the art form. Form does not equal vision; plenty of greeting-card doggerel can testify to that. Lack of form does not equal vision either, as the most trite piece of teenage cut-up-prose can testify. The point of poetry is always that it one ought to strive to make it (or allow it to be) the vehicle of that vision. 

 

Sadoff accuses neo-formalists of a "dangerous nostalgia", ignoring the fact that language itself is nostalgic, being built on what has passed, what is already known, what is recognisable, otherwise it fails as a medium of communication. Even today's argot will be tomorrow's nostalgia. Form has passed from its argot stage, but it remains in the body of the art; it's there, it can be used, in whole or in part, depending on how the poet feels the need to express the vision. As such it is not the Latin or the Anglo-Saxon of poetry, but a part of poetry's functioning language - if you want to use it.

 

Another criticism by Sadoff is that "the dominant stance of most neo-formalist poetry is elegiac". Well, I could say "Guilty as charged"; but on the other hand if one wants to write a poem that is elegiac, and a formal approach works, and that is how the expression of the vision seems to work for you, then you're entitled to use the available ammunition in your magazine. I have read poetry devoid of form that is nonetheless elegiac - it worked, it worked fine.

 

Where the stance both of neo-formalism, and of its critics, is most flawed is wherever it seeks to limit the art-form. There I too am in a Catch-22 situation. I have my own view of what poetry is, and what it is for; I am convinced that it exists so that language (in the hands of us bards!) can be used to express what the mundane tongue cannot. But unless I accept the doggerel and the cut-up prose as part of the art form, I am simply building a wall round myself and pulling up the ladder.

 

In the end, Sadoff's criticisms of neo-formalism boil down to something one could level at anyone who tries to define the boundaries of poetry - that the very definition kills it.

 

A postscript: Do I define, and therefore kill, the art form simply by writing poetry? My poems are full of my own rules, my own definitions, they are written the way I want to write them. I write something, I am satisfied with it, I present it, saying "Here is a poem, a complete work of art". Does that statement negate everything that lies outside the poem? My friend who described me as "Marshalline" regularly defines another poet as "perfect"; does that kill by definition? If I have raised more questions than I have given answers all well and good. It is 3am, and what I needed to say is now off my chest.

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  • oleander
    September 25, 2009
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    This looks really interesting. I'll have to come back and read it in full when I'm more receptive.


    • Mairi bheag gold member
      September 25, 2009
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      You'll be very welcome. there's a lot here now, if you count the comments and replies, and the interesting links.


  • adios muchachos
    September 25, 2009
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    Mairi

    I feel like I've just walked out of a lecture hall! I even had to go to the bathroom midway.

    I might have gotten this by mistake, I think.
    If I'm riding on a bus 180 miles from Los Angeles and open a book of poetry, I'm not going to consider any of this upon reading. My only concern will be if it pleases. Poetry doesn't even exist, but the reader, yes, he/she always on that bus or train or plane, with or without that book.
    I have read poems that I know with constant certitude were written by and for the poet only. That is a journal and only that.
    Where is the fun in writing this stuff? Is it transferable? If the poet cannot do that, he or she might as well be writing in invisible ink.
    Either get it to that bus passenger or write journals.

    I thought your discourse was eloquent, Mairi!
    Oh Oh, got to go again!

    John




    • Mairi bheag gold member
      September 25, 2009
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      God bless your bladder, John.

      Yes, you have it exactly - the difference between communication on the one hand and self-indulgence or introspection on the other. Probably less than 2% of all poetry written ever gets the approval of any publisher. Until the internet came along, and along with it sites like this, and the ability to blog, most of it never got beyond a the lined pages of a tatty exercise book underneath someone's bed. In many ways those were great days, because we were spared a whole lot of "bad" poetry (I know, I know, that's a value judgment). There's a lot of it on this site now; but at least that means people get the chance to see if it works. I have to accept everyone's right to express themselves, or how can I claim that right myself?

      But you're right. In layman's terms you are four square with Blake.

      Part of my own definition of poetry - that is what I have to do with it, not what I demand other people should regard as poetry - is that I don't write it wholly for myself. If poetry is cathartic for me it is also something I do in public, so there has to be some way it reaches out to other people, or it loses all context. Form is not a pre-requisite for that, it's simply there to be used if we want to. It is as wrong to insist on form as being essential to the art form, by virtue of its being a recognisable structure, as it is to insist that it is outworn. Either absolute has its risks - the trotting out of hackneyed rhymes and devices on the one hand, or the presentation of something a grey as a slab of concrete on the other.

      Now, I don't say this to prove how erudite I am, but I as a person on the same bus, a reader of poetry, I do like to be stretched. So I can appreciate (and imitate) writers like Lisa Jarnot http://allpoetry.com/poem/4655019 or Richard Siken http://allpoetry.com/poem/4650559 . Communication is not necessary easy.

      Forgive the ramble.


  • Peteskid gold member
    September 24, 2009
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    well i hope your chest feels lighter if not better ...sorry couldn't resist, but i think the neo-formalists got lost in their own long-winded diatribe and missed the key point-
    we struggle: we recognize elements of form for their effects, refrains that compound an idea, structure that points the reader, or lulls them like a lullaby.

    We see these things and grapple with then at the interstices of expression and restraint, that is the " neo" of neo-formalism. The results can be as contra-distinct Mairi as your style and mine...could there be a wider gap...yet there it is : you sing of the lichen covered rocks on the foggy moor, I wax eloquent about Harlem and race struggle in America; in the end we for examples: recognize the delicacy of a Villanelle, then transport the idea of refrains into free verse...for the same effect- an haunting of the mind with a frequent repetition; understand the talk tone rhythm of an Shakespearian sonnet.... yet seek the same tonal balance or harmony in French, or in street English American English [ -Oh Shaw, you were so right]. For me the ideal is a struggle to incorporate the values and beauty of form into many other types of writing.

    Anyway...that's what I think...PK



    • Mairi bheag gold member
      September 25, 2009
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      As it happens I think they did too. When I described myself as such, I wasn't signing up to the party manifesto, I was describing what I do. In fact I think my attitude to poetry is so atypical of neo-formalism that the movement would disown me, if not find it difficult to consider me as being in their number.

      Certainly any attempt to define what poetry has pitfalls. We can see what the mid-20c neo-formalists were trying to say, but they were hoist with their own petard. I think the likes of Sadoff are similarly hoist, however. Me? I am simply trying to use what I've got, and that includes anything from straight-talking to metaphor, and from form to (apparent) non-form.

      If I write about lichen-covered rocks it's because I see and know lichen-covered rocks. I get a buzz from nature, and I know I'm a nature-poet (another school I would get kicked out of). That doesn't mean it's all I write. And my formal poetry isn't invariably elegiac. Someone said "write me a sestina", and out came this tribute to Irvine Welsh http://allpoetry.com/poem/4608545 which is growing into something much bigger, but which sure-as-hell isn't elegiac. I consider it a thoroughly modern poem. But even when I use form for some kind of romantic-medievalist effect http://allpoetry.com/poem/4480087 it's germane to the subject matter, it's appropriate to what I am asked to do and, whether anyone likes it or not, it is a poem written in the 21c, and can't be taken out of a 21c context. I don't want it to be taken out of that context, no matter how romantic-medievalist it is.

      In effect, what I am doing throughout my works is poetic calisthenics.

      I wonder if people realise just how late in art came the concept of "Ars Gratia Artis"? I have always said art is a statement of priority One of the reasons why, for example, perspective was not true in medieval art, was it was not something the artists wanted to show. You could have taken any one of them and trained them in how to draw in perspective as easy as anything, as much as in any later artistic technique - they would have had the capability of understanding it. However, in the context of their time, that would have been an avenue they would not have looked down. Although there have always been innovators, and although "art for art's sake" may have always been there in the artists' talent, it was latent for most of the history of art, because the priority was doing the patron's bidding. "Make me look important," said the Emperor of Byzantium, and so the artist showed him presenting the Haghia Sophia, in both hands, to God.

      The place of the patron faded out in art, in all aspects of art. Maybe it is making a comeback in the rampant capitalism of the late 20c early 21c - I can certainly see parallels - rich men sponsoring the shark-pickler of their choice, the greeting card company specifying mawkish sentimentality, the record company a&e men combing the cities for rappers...

      There's a thing - rap. Rappers signed no neo-formalist manifesto, but here we have what is essentially a naive poetic form which relies strongly on rhythm and rhyme. I would place rap in the same very broad church as myself, though the intent and effect is different. (Having said that, I have written what amounts to rap lyrics, which have actually been performed to music - not bad for a semi-rural, middle-aged, white woman!).

      Your last statement - For me the ideal is a struggle to incorporate the values and beauty of form into many other types of writing - that is the whole point, and I think we stand shoulder-to-shoulder on that.

      Forgive the further ramble.


      • Peteskid gold member
        September 25, 2009
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        I'm not surprised you could write a rap lyric, or virtually anything else for that matter. Talent is not your issue!

        Thanks for the reply, I enjoyed and I think the whole topic is very useful. I read a lot of the modernists and neo-modernists from Brazil. I was struck by the depths of feeling over the tenor of the various movements, organizations, academies.
        I think of a school of poetry about the way I think of the Milky Way, It only looks organized and systematic from a great, great distance. Inside it is a star with vast distance to another star, more or less like our bodies at the molecular level - we are mostly empty space. But each empty space is needed to maintain the complexity of the whole, the energy that might erupt from any space can start a reaction to involve the whole.

        So it was with the leading writers of those movements, each one had the ability to cause the paradigm to shift. You may see that in your own works, staying true to your self, when others see and are influenced by what you write and what you say about your writing.

        Giving context to what you do as a writer is important, the goals you set, the ideal you embrace; so I hope you continue to bring these discussions. Adding texture and definitions to the poetry landscape.



        • Mairi bheag gold member
          September 25, 2009
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          I must say I am startled to think of anyone seeing a paradigm shift in or because of anything I write or say. If anything, I have learned that people's ideas are entrenched. A few people have come to me and asked how do you do so and so? or how do you write such-and-such a form? but by and large I just post poetry - and that less and less these days.

          I am credited with inventing two, possibly three forms - the Loose Sapphic, the nine-bean-sonnet (damned if I will call it the Marshalline), and arguably the fusion of an English sonnet with a 360 degree wreath - but in no case did I set out to do any such thing. I am tired of the antics of those who deliberately contrive "new forms", as it strikes me as being the worst of self-indulgence. Any "new form" of mine was simply a vehicle for expression and, in the case of the Loose Sapphic, an accident.

          I can tell you that I have had as many rejections from publishers as any other poet (but that I have a very patient agent who pushes and pushes my stuff forward where I am personally reticent). I am no great shakes, but I have been told that I "know what poetry is, and know what it's for".

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