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I'm pondering self-worth. (Jump in whenever.)

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

If so, let's ponder together. My hope is that this will be a conversation among people who like to think, rather than a column written by me. Someone has to start, though, so I've done that.

This discussion in particular started as (and as of 23:32 EST on 25 January 2007, consists entirely of) a response I wrote to a comment by neurosine on one of my poems: Finding 8:37

I plan to do a bunch of these. Thank you to neurosine (whom you should all read) for inspiring what seems like a pretty good idea to me.

Regarding Self-Worth


Insight into this topic is one of the nifty things I got out of my crash-and-burn experience over the past year. Lack of self-worth wouldn't mean much if there weren't others to use as measuring sticks. Let go of it all, and suddenly you just don't feel like doing that anymore; crash hard enough, and maybe you simply can't. (The flames did not go out for months.)

The rest, I think, is all tied up in how well you decide to treat yourself. Because there's more to any person than just what (s)he does, can do, and has done. Doing is the best way of being visible, but being visible is not the same as being. If one is, then one obviously "does." The question is not "How well?" but rather, "Did I want to do that?"  And if so, "What did I get out of it?"

Giving a treat:

"I feel good about what I accomplished today.  I think I will give myself a treat."

 

Getting one more fix:

"I want something that feels good, and I am going to get it. Now."

A treat is different from a fix: One grants oneself the gift of really tasting the ice cream, so to speak, while it's being eaten. Surely ice cream would never have been invented, were it not for the pleasure of savoring it; Ben and Jerry did not make millions because ice cream has great health benefits.


As best I can tell, it's only possible to savor a simple pleasure if one is self-aware (lives outside of one's head) enough to not question whether that sweetness is deserved.  What does a person have to do to officially forefeit the right to enjoy? Who hands down that verdict?

In the case of a fix (e.g. any addiction: drugs, alcohol, reckless self-endangerment, abuse of others ... compulsive use of a poetry website [Guilty, your honor.]), one eats the ice cream as fast as possible, and with a minimum of satisfaction or enjoyment. It's a convenient way to cram an ounce of feeling into the void left by the hurt and angry bits of self that have been kept in a bottle for years,
denied  the right to exist.

 

In their place sits an unfeeling computer running a program.  I'm just thinking out loud here:

 

An explicit set of instructions on how to pretend to exist: 

/*    Re-define this every time one's actions do not provoke the world ("Them") to announce that one is "good enough."                                  */

 

[1] 

"This is how to feel shame and self-loathing (or perhaps nothing whatsoever) instead of remorse while apologizing; this is how to beg for validity instead of forgiveness; this is how to barter self-sacrifice for acceptance instead of wanting to make amends."

/*    Forgiveness is surely too much to ask of "Them" when one has proven oneself to be unacceptable, unfeeling, and not "good enough."        */

 

[2] 

"This is how to interpret the emotions of others ('Them') as threatened exposure of the painful 'truth' that one is not 'good enough.'"

/*   What better reason could there be to express a bit of pent-up rage [old anger never addressed] or self-pity [old hurt never addressed]?   */

/*   They have been crammed into their respective, increasingly over-full bottles for years; one never pays attention to such things..             */

/*   Ah, but is that not what makes "Them" so convenient to begin with?                                                                                                        */

 

[3] 

"This is how to 'accept' a compliment from 'Them' without feeling good about it (deflect and/or reciprocate automatically, since one is plainly not 'good enough.')"

/*    This is always true, because "good enough" is a meaningless idea; its one use is as an obsessive distraction from old pain                      */

/*    and tough questions.                                                                                                                                                                                */

 

[4] 

"This is how to beg for/demand, rather than seek, what one most wants."

/*    One could never be 'good enough' to achieve it, would have to risk failure, humiliation, and the disappointment of "Them"                       */

/*    in the act.  Furthermore, why risk the horror of winding up in a position of having to accept a compliment?  To affirm one's own           */ 

/*    existence like that would mean accepting responsibility for things like hope and happiness.                                                                     */

 


Shame and self-pity are expressions of unresolved anger and hurt.

Do you ever think your feelings?  What are you asking yourself?  

 

(I) "Do I hurt 'Them,' too, when I beat myself up?' It would serve 'Them' right."

(II) "Will 'They' be miserable with me if I hurt loud enough in front of 'Them?'  I wish 'They' understood my pain."

 

Do you know the answers already?  So how many ways can you word the same question?


  

[5] 

"This is how to live in ignorance of the fact that I am 'Them.'"
/*                                                                                                                                                                                                                   */

 

 

Self-loathing is self-denied empathy. 

("If 'They' saw fit to do these things to me, then that must be what I deserve.")

Consider:

     -If "these things" had happened to someone else, would you give him/her more or less

     consideration than you give yourself?

     -Do you even know what "these things" are?  (Most of us don't.)

 

 

Which motivates you more: the pain itself, or the fear of feeling it?

 

Q: What separates the two?

Q: Just exactly how tough are the lies that keep you from what you want?

 

A: The wall of bone around your brain.  (Pretty safe in there, huh?)


 


Just one more fix....

Q: Why not take the time to selfishly savor the gift of taste?

(That would feel uncomfortably conspicuous ... right?)

 

A: Because it's impossbile to graciously receive what must be desperately begged for or forceably taken.

 

Grab what you can as fast as possible, feel just slightly (or at least pretend to), and then retreat to the pre-fabricated recesses of your fear-full head, run your computer program, and feel "almost good" until that inevitable moment when the ice cream is truly gone.

 

  

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  • j-ay rose
    August 3, 2007
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    "The rest, I think, is all tied up in how well you decide to treat yourself."
    how are we supposed to treat ourselves?

    (look you can see how i read!) "Lack of self-worth wouldn't mean much if there weren't others to use as measuring sticks." how are people used as measuring sticks? i know that personally my lack of self worth has nothing to do with other people. the goals and things i expect of myself have nothing to do with other people. hell, i expect far less from others. so are you saying that because i have the need to "be better than others" then i am using them to measure my worth?

    "As best I can tell, it's only possible to savor a simple pleasure if one is self-aware (lives outside of one's head) enough to not question whether that sweetness is deserved." a person lacking self worth cannot enjoy the same way someone who does not lack self worth?

    "Who hands down that verdict?" them? (them being the person who is lacking the self worth.) it is their perception after all.

    "Shame and self-pity are expressions of unresolved anger and hurt."
    the very first feelings of shame is unresolved anger and hurt? it seems to me that shame is nothing more than a feeling invoked by society not a persons self perceived worth. just because a person feels shameful does not mean that they will always feel guilty or shameful nor does it mean they do not value themselves greatly. i'm sure the most egotistical person can feel shame or self-pity.

    this seems arrogant: "(I) "Do I hurt 'Them,' too, when I beat myself up?' It would serve 'Them' right."

    (II) "Will 'They' be miserable with me if I hurt loud enough in front of 'Them?' I wish 'They' understood my pain.""


    "If 'They' saw fit to do these things to me, then that must be what I deserve.")" There doesnt need to be a "they" to hate yourself.

    yep...

  • myrataal silver member
    March 15, 2007
    Edit | Reply

    I just gave myself a treat ...

    by reading you today. Now I feel so inspired, I can go working on that manuscript which I avoided for almost an hour.

    Thank you, Poet.

    Love
    Myra

  • Abscessed gold member
    March 7, 2007
    Edit | Reply
    you're a genius...do you know that?
  • SadJuggalette
    February 23, 2007
    Edit | Reply
    Ben and Jerry's doesn't have any health benefits? No wonder I'm so fat......

    This proved many points to me, especially "will I show 'them'..I never think of that when I'm ripping my hair out or hitting my head against the wall.
    This can be very soothing to read, because it makes it so obvious that you're (I'm, they're...) not the only one suffering from those problems!
    Thanks for the good read,
    Peace

  • Love of a Bullet
    February 23, 2007
    Edit | Reply
    It feels like what you are talking about here is the difference between an internal or external locus of control.

    In my experience, people who spend time focused on "them" have (some would argue by definition) an external locus.

    If your focus is on "them" then it is not too long before you become defined by "them", in every meaningful sense.

    This is the downside of free will:

    And Pandora's box was opened, and out flooded all the horrible creatures of the night; doubt, loahting, fear, jealously, and at last came free will - so the decision would always be ours.

    or, more to the point, in an actual quote;

    "When Alexander saw the breth of his domain he wept, for there were no more lands to be conqured."

    The point is, no matter whether it be by "them" or by "ourselves" we have made a decison as to our own self worth. That decision is always concious - I suffer no fools declaring otherwise. When we are children, perhaps, we cannot decide... at a certain age free will - for the necessity of society - is made manifest by supposition.

    That some of us choose self-loathing then, perhaps simply because of the cloak of warm familiarity that accompanies, follows in logic inexorable.

    This decision is not to be chastied or embraced by others who forget that they too have decided.

    For whatever it's worth.

    ~Das

    • JustBe gold member
      February 23, 2007
      Edit | Reply

      Awesome post!

      This is meant to be a discussion, not a showcase for the back of the hand and the unnecessarily abstruse. And while Alexander III was, without question, the greatest conqueror of all time--not to mention a student of Aristotle himself--the man has also been dead for 2,330 years, and I'm pretty sure he didn't give a damn about pontifications on XX-Century Psychology. Since that last bit is the whole point here, and since dead people can't discuss anything, I don't see what Al's story has to do with the price of tea in China. Also, I wish you would not use words like "fool" so cavalierly. I'll try not to make assumptions about where you were pointing the word, and to the extent that I fail in that pursuit, I'll try not to read between the lines.

      I understand what you are saying, but I think you are overlooking something pretty important: Logic is a man-made invention. Humans are not now, nor have we been, nor will we ever be, rational creatures. Neither are we robots to be programmed, nor are we manifestations of theoretical abstraction, each "defined" by our coordinate sets of representative coefficients in some multivariate differential equation. (Not any equation we monkeys will ever dream up, leastwise.)

      Humanity needs to face up to the fact that we can't prove that we know anything. There's always been a mile-wide hole in epistemology. Isn't it beautiful? (Prove me wrong.) We need to find some appropriate humility before we all become extinct. We are too simple to really get it, and I find that comforting: It means we can get to know our internal selves (a la Jung) by wondering respectfully. That's a pretty "internal" perspective, come to think of it. Maybe this unwritten paragraph was why I felt so compelled to change my motto yesterday.

      I can see you've been reading Rotter. You might do well to read Colin Ross and Martin Seligman, as well, seems to me. I can't imagine you've overlooked the work of the latter, who is a past president of the APA, but you seem to dismiss him out of hand.

      All that I've written here is just me. Didn't read it anywhere. Took a tumble to the bottom of life recently, and this what I saw when I finally looked up. This and a spider. You can read about the spider in the poem I linked above if you're interested. If you need some real-world context, then feel free to read my other column, too. Did you catch that just now? Where's my locus?

      I'm a first-born, theoretical physicist son of a psychiatrist/attorney and a nurse/social worker; grew up in an affluent household; have always made friends easily. And despite that I've always been miserable and hated myself, if you had asked me a year ago, I'd have told you I've never let anything get the better of me since day one. This past year--year #30, when life as I've always known it spontaneously burned to the ground--has taught me different; from #1-#29, though, if I decided to do something, I either did it well to begin with, or else I busted my hump until I had once again earned the right to completely ignore that sunny patch that people who like themselves unabashedly call "on top." How much more "internal" could my locus of control of reinforcement be? Listen to me talking about myself, for the love of dog!

      It is not about "Them." It is, as you have said--much like I said explicitly before that--about me (a.k.a. "one"). If I define myself in the terms espoused by the infamous "They" ... who don't really exist outside the skull, I am "Them" myself. Sounds like we agree on that much.

      I'd say it's all well and good to categorically proclaim that at some age we gain the ability to think for ourselves, except that I'm not convinced that's always the case. I will agree that some people resign themselves to self-loathing, and do so because it is easier than finding reason to hope for better. I say some people (people call me Morgan) are too completely lost in existential nowheresville to even wonder about it (cue Mr. Ross here), but I'll let you call that an external locus of control of reinforcement if you wish.
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying, essentially, the following:

      "We all love/hate ourselves as someone else sees fit while we are yet unable to exercise free will."
      +
      "Eventually, we all have to make decisions for ourselves, else society will fall apart."
      _____________________________________________________
      "Ultimately, we bear responsibility for where our heads are at when we cut the umbilicus."

      ergo

      "Has free will."
      +
      "Loves/hates self just like always."
      _____________________________________________________
      "Loves/hates self freely."

      Quod erat demonstrandum:

      "My sense of self-worth absolutely was chosen consciously--even if, like always, I don't know why I still believe it unquestioningly--and I am an insufferable fool if I think otherwise."




      Is that about right? How do you explain someone who earnestly, wrongly believes that he knows why he does what he does, and who just knows he has mastered most everything about himself ... but doesn't even know what it means to consider asses and elbows?
      I was a messed-up kid on top of the world, and I had no idea what was going on when I fell all the way to the bottom. All I knew was what felt good (pity, strawberry-flavored frozen desserts) and what felt bad (the other stuff); the finer details were pretty hazy.
      Actually, I am still struggling mightily to evolve past a graduated emotional continuum with despair/rage/shame/terror at one end and incredulous gratitude/"It's about frigging time!"/"I dare you to prove I'm not perfect."/security blanket at the other.
      I've always known I'm worth something. Just never believed it, is all.


      I will now happily suffer you to say just whatever the heck you feel like saying. We're discussing here, not posturing. Well, OK, I postured a bit, too. So, uh, FROM NOW ON, no posturing. Heh. Let's just discuss.

      Thanks for really thinking about this topic by the way. I love talking to people who really think about stuff.
      ~Morgan

      • Love of a Bullet
        February 24, 2007
        Edit | Reply

        Assimilated.

        Heh... fun stuff.

        Section by section:

        Ignoring the seemingly misconstrued opening, and assuming some sort of packet loss between my keyboard and your eyes, I'll jump right to the Alexander bit. So the question here, what does Alexander, a pinnacle of history and humanity, have to do with our conversation today? Surely, since he lived thousands of years ago, any relevance to be drawn from that well is most definitely already tapped. I am a bit frustrated, though I assume the error to be entirely mine, that a person of your obvious intellect did not draw the appropriate inference.

        Where was Alexander's locus of control? Now extrapolate that to the rest of my post. (If this is unintelligible, or if you think Alexander somehow had an internal locus, we're not starting from the same page and need to do some discussing here before we move forward.)

        Assuming we're on the same page (which very well may be dangerous, not that there's anything wrong with differing) the point I attempted, and failed so miserably at, was to show that the process, or procedure (to be clinical), of "them", while often cyclic, is also infinite. Without meaningful interruption, man living externally, once in motion, stays in motion. We'll come back to this in a moment.

        Given your finesse, we can say I failed to make your Latin standard in this regard.

        Which brings us, conveniently, to my use of the word "fool". It is always interesting to observe what accidental experiments are conducted through the course of interaction and conversation. In order to be the slightest bit offended by my verbiage here, you would have had to come, at least partially, to the conclusion that I was in someway talking about you. Examination of my post and yours leads me to suppose that you feel our decisions regarding self worth are not always conscious. That's a great academic debate, but wholly irrelevant. (Whoever, perhaps a great multitude, I have to dismiss out of hand here, I am comfortable with.)

        Why might this be? Enter society, and this guy Chris. Chris, his real name, was a racist southern-redneck type who worked with me in some menial capacity many years ago. Chris used to feel people out around him to see if they were amendable to his racism. He'd use, despite not being very intelligent, coy remarks and slights that could be taken several ways. If one encouraged him, he'd break out the arsenal whenever you'd listen. If one discouraged him, he'd make an unsuccessful effort to keep his hate to himself. One day, at a company function where the attendance of family was requested, my coworkers had the opportunity to meet Chris's father. (I wasn't there, so this is second hand.) Big surprise, Chris's father made Chris look like a chairman for the NAACP. Apparently, he spent the entire night telling jokes, which, by their mere existence, seemed to violate the 14th Amendment.

        Follows naturally, after that, everyone understood why Chris was the way he was - but no one cared. At 25 years old, necessarily, he owned his words and his actions. It is imperative that a standard exists here - otherwise we spend the rest of our lives unraveling who isn't responsible for what and for what reason. So yes, ultimately you own where your head is when the cord is cut. Your math is accurate (to the point of loves/hates self freely).

        The "fools" I was referring to, at this point, should be clear (more assumptions). Moreover, I wonder if this regrettable part of our otherwise pleasant interaction wasn't avoidable. I might not throw about terms - of little consequence to my point - in any case. Same said, you might not choose to so interpret, as such, an accusation so completely without merit. If I thought you a fool, I'd have moved on without comment. Flame wars, are by their nature, not for serious discussion. We'll call this understanding intellectual courtesy.

        This brings us, in a back roads manner, to the subject of epistemology - a word I had to look up in the dictionary. It ought to be enough here to state that I am an avid fan of Ayn Rand, and perhaps going further creates between us an endless back and forth where we propound into obscurity. With that risk in mind, I state the following: The idea, or concept, that we don't know anything at all is responsible, and nearly entirely at that, for our not-so-modern-in-origins anti-progress. If you accept as irrefutable, or inarguable, the premise that we know nothing - or worse yet - that we cannot prove we know anything, you are spared the burden of advancement. Mankind may offer to the universe a simple shrug, and go about behaving in any particular manner at all, without cause or meaning (cue society, again). "Ergo," the only rational conclusion is that we are of knowledge possessed, and that knowledge provides the building blocks we may use to finally crawl from the sea. (This is an unpopular concept - it is vastly preferable, on the individual level, to plead ignorance - then people leave you alone.)

        If my count is correct, that brings us to lineage. My father graduated the local tech school and my mother teaches special ed kids at the first and second grade level. I am dispatcher by trade and a criminal by nature. (Luckily, I seem to beat more charges than I get convicted for.) I attend night school at a college that accepts anyone with a pulse. I haven't the faintest idea who Rotter, Ross or Seligman are (or were), and I am fairly certain I have never read a word any of them have written. Which is not to say I wouldn't be interested. If it is imperative to look beyond my personal experience for a background to my thinking, I would suggest Robert Ardrey. While "The Social Contract" is better than three decades old, it still represents a cornerstone work in understanding human nature. For more contemporary or conventional appeal, I enjoy Neal Donald Walsh and Richard Bach - which would be sure to get laughs around the water coolers, if considered. Funny how that last sentence of mine portrays a desire to justify myself. Maybe *my* locus could use a tune up.

        Now then, you asked how I would explain someone who believes he knows, yet does not. How delightful it would be to hide here behind the reality that we are our own worst psychologists. But I won't do that. I will simply state that I have insisted throughout that we act based on meaning and choice... I have never suggested that we fully understand the meaning, or the nature of the choice. What, then, does it matter, you may ask. Isn't saying we don't understand the meaning of our choices the same as saying we don't understand our choices? Not at all, for the reason of accountability. If someone drives drunk and turns a family of four into speed bumps, we don't accept as mitigating the argument that he didn't understand the meaning of his choice to drink and drive. Nor, interestingly, is it important for us to consider or prove that he DID know the meaning. "Ergo," if someone doesn't know "what it means to consider asses and elbows" they will continue down the path of their lives (re-enter Alexander, on time and as promised) until a great fall OR until they have vanquished all opposition, stand triumphant, and weep for the emptiness of it all. But I repeat myself.

        ~Das

        • JustBe gold member
          February 25, 2007
          Edit | Reply

          Please do not go away.

          On Wild Kingdom they dart, say, a wildebeast, if they want to make sure it doesn't get away. I use my favorites list.

          You are a funny guy. Based on your copiously humble "packet-loss" remark and your labeling of yourself as "criminal" by nature, I'm going to take a wild guess here, and I'm going to play it safe by asking a question without asking a question at all:

          Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol? DDOS? Hexadecimal Editor? Python? Javascript?

          Bummer about the half-duplex nature of communication on AP, huh?

          It's 3am, so I'm going to procrastinate responding to all of that until tomorrow. I'll say one thing, though. No, strike that. I'll say three, counting that last one.

          Thing #2
          Rotter coined the term "Locus of control of reinforcement" in 1966; Colin Ross was a contemporary to Rotter who later confronted the issue of inappropriate self-blame among subjects of childhood trauma. Martin Seligman is a recent president of the American Psychological Association, and he is famous for creating a new branch of Psychology called "Positive Psychology." He wrote a book called "Learned Optimism." HIGHLY recommended by yours truly.

          Thing #3

          If you are big into Objectivist thought, then that explains a bundle, and it certainly explains your take on Epistemology. I'm not a fan of the act of attacking a person's world view, so I'll just say that I disagree with the late Ms. Rand on a great many scores, and a number of her assertions rather offend me on humanity's behalf (certainly on that of art). I mentioned one already, which is that I do not believe there is anything precise, mathematical, or "accurate" about being human. There is no way to measure precisely, because it is fundamentally impossible. There is a mountain of empirical evidence of this, which we have abstracted until conjecture and lack of disproof yielded Quantum Physics ... which is the most successful THEORY in all of Physics. Quantum Physicas most interesting finding, perhaps, is that it (very compellingly) has been shown that at very small length scales, position and movement are both patently stochastic by the very nature of the universe. If we can know objective reality, how is it, then, that we alter it in the very act of observing it? Quantum Physics has never been proven, nor will it ever be proven, because it is fundamentally impossible to prove anything. One must first have an axiom. To her credit, Rand bases her whole mode of thought on the pragmatic need for axioms. Nonetheless, her argument in favor of a knowable objective reality seems to me to be "just because I said so." I'll stop there, because disagreements on the building blocks of reality and perception pretty much never go anywhere good unless everyone is fully willing to throw out the blueprint.
          I will suggest a very, very important book, however. If you have not already, I'll bet you'd find it hugely interesting to read Immanuel Kant's A Critique of Pure Reason. Afterward, read Nietzsche. Then Sartre. I am not a Nihilist, by the way, and Seligman's book on the very topic of perceived self-worth is mind-blowing.
          Do we not deconstruct reality by turnig it into a series of abstract categorizations? What is lost in that practice, and is it not uniquely human in nature to lose such?
          I've given up counting "things" at this point, because it's 4:09am, god damn it. I feel comfy saying that, since I have a pretty good idea you don't much care for god. I'll part with a few questions.
          Mathematics and all other forms of Philosophy are self-contradictory at some point, because all are based on axioms that are wholly unjustifiable. Perhaps we do know what's up, but I defy you to prove it. Look up logical proof, on wikipedia, and you'll see what I mean. That's why two philosophers can be relied upon to agree just about as often as two economists. How, then, could we possibly size up all that is using dualistic judgments of "correct" and "flawed?"
          If we are part of an objective reality, is it not, in terms of, if you will, "human disk space," fundamentally impossible to know all of it? Does your experience truly tell you that love is purely a convenient utility? What is "progress?" On what basis is it valid to say that Laissez-Faire "progress" is morally superior to empathy among fellow man? As defined, has it caused or averted war? Depending upon the answer to that, is war in the interest of anyone's pursuit of happiness?
          Physics is the most nitty-gritty of the hard sciences, which are all premised on the efficacy of measurement; how many Objectivist physicists have you met? Did Albert Einstiein write the three most seminal papers of the XX Century through the assimilation of knowledge, or through intuition? I quote: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Imagination is intuitive--feeling-based.
          All measurement instruments were designed and built to spec using less precise measurement instruments; how can they be accurate? If it was knowledge that got us this far, was Darwin wrong? Why did Rand wind up the central guru of a group that called itself "The Collective?" Does that not mean she assumes herself to be "most correct" among humans? Why was she so mysogynistic, then? Just some thoughts.
          Best,
          Morgan

          • Love of a Bullet
            February 25, 2007
            Edit | Reply
            Post 4:09a:

            I am going to have to get back to this in pieces. First off, the problem is, at least in part, in the question. Like a New Jersey school girl, over examination perpetuates the policy and next thing you know you find yourself in the mall going bat shit because Sears is all out of truth. You know some things. You don't know others. The extent of the now familiar term "axiom" is a human definition. A *human* construction! There is no word, phrase, saying or hand signal that conveys what you want to say here. At what point is the proof good enough? After greater than 2 millennia of clearly recorded thought, I am willing to accept that one duck, plus another duck, will always, without fail, equal two ducks. This is a axiom. I know it to be the case, my sixteen-year-old daughter knows it to be the case, and I suspect, fundamentally, you can't argue you don't. (If you want to argue that you don't, I wouldn't. I have two ducks, and if you're not careful, I'll break out the quod erat demonstrandum. Don't think I won't.) I am completely... completely... disinterested in discussing the meaning of the words "plus", "duck(s)", or "equals". They too achieve axiom status because of the results they achieve when combined in an understood way. Let us not degenerate into quasi-psychological Clinton-esqe babble.

            More to the point, language and logic together, do not permit the statement "there is no knowable truth". If you "know" that there is no "knowable" truth, well, then, you know a truth! You can't decently promote a standard, that by doing so, refutes the standard.

            The merging of architect (intellect) and bricklayer (common sense) gets buildings built. The same sort of combination sent us to the moon, while other men of intellect debated which direction was up (no slight intended). The reality that we choose to have different priorities could not mean less in a conversation where, clearly, we are discussing potential (since nothing is real).

            You don't need to size up all that is. You need to know what the next step is, and how to take it. Given our nature, this process is slow (and not, unfortunately, because we are caught up in discussion).

            I could do a whole paragraph here on the connection between progress and war, but I don't have to, since we agree on the ends. (I suspect, however, we disagree on the cause.)

            Three lines on measurement instruments: do you have a sharp knife? do you believe it is within mankind's ability to make a sharper knife? Ok, then.

            Thanks for the lesson on Rotter, Ross and Seligman. "Learned Optimism" sounds interesting. I came by the term "locus of control" in book on crisis intervention, it was unattributed.

            Without fail,

            ~Das

            P.S. - It just occurred to me that your "nothing is provable" argument bears an uncomfortable resemblance to, and has probably been followed by, on more than one occasion, religious sentiment. "God has a plan" = "there is no human discernable meaning." (God used, at the beginning of that sentence, as well as this one, is intentional.)

            • JustBe gold member
              February 25, 2007
              Edit | Reply
              Loved that movie, by the way. I should have stopped before the questions part, because I predicted what would happen before I wasted the time. We will convince each other of nothing. Share titles of good books, perhaps, but that is all. You have your way of looking at things, I have mine. We will always have frustrating answers to each other's questions, and there is likely nothing for it. That's why I steered clear of Philosophy as a line of work. Fun on my own time, easy to gobble up on wikipedia.org and cited references, but a very frustrating vocationally, because all anyone does is shoot holes in other theories. As you say, Rand and had a very specific definition of "axiom," and it is different in an important way from the extremely specific definition used in Mathematics. I have a degree in Mathematics, you are an Objectivist. That leaves us with stuff like, "My Calculus text is better than Atlas Shrugged! Nyeah!" Your apple is better than my Buick, too. Can't make pies out of Buicks. Oh, hell.
              Like I said before, don't go anywhere. It's been interesting.
              Best,
              Morgan

            • JustBe gold member
              February 25, 2007
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              Nope. I'm no Christian. I believe in god, not God. Apple and Buick.

  • Macey Muse
    February 23, 2007
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    Then, there're the actual conversations held in one's head with 'Them' (often specific, occasionally general) in which they validate one's worth and/or feel empathy for one.

    That could just be me, of course.

    • JustBe gold member
      February 23, 2007
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      You have always been a clever one, Macey, and I know from experience that the art of intelligent spacing is not lost on you. What fabulous irony. Yeah, I'd say it's just you. If it isn't, I can't imagine why you'd bother having those conversations. "They" have this nasty habit of failing to exist at all.

  • knitonepearlone
    February 23, 2007
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    I like your column and have taken time to read all the comments. It's made me think aboutwhat a great site this is and what wonderful people linger here. Discovering AP was the first taste of the ice cream I'd had for a long time after working full time and raising three children. I found I could write and I found a bunch of people who thought like me. My self worth began to return and I am making huge changes in my life. I've even published a book!! I'm beginning to understand how little I valued myself and how this allowed others to devalue me. Not any more though!!! Thanks for the column. Excellent job.

  • dehydrated
    February 23, 2007
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    Wow, so many times did I ponder about me being in 'their' shoes, while I was pretending to be okay, I couldn't decline from being spiteful or refrain from loathing sensations.
    Thank you > referring to your last words.
    *Applaud* (a million of them won't coat me anything here )
    It's just that even though our 'good' part of conscience blabs all the time, we need a 'friend' or perhaps a random person(being) who can relate to our 'current' stae-of-mind and to empathize(*nodding*). That I think calms the nerves.
    ~Madd( I am happy that I clicked)

  • NurseChilly gold member
    January 30, 2007
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    i hate following Liza's great comments..

    so i shall say ditto to her outlook and how life is so strange that it makes wonder at tiny blips on a screen ... thinking that it is all completely serious and so sure...

    this column is great ... well done

    • JustBe gold member
      January 30, 2007
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      Thank you!

      It was quite rare for a very, very long time. Some things take forever to learn: If life is a barbecue, bring preferred sauce and a pair of mitts, wonder why when the food tastes like what cooked it ... and maybe watch Emeril once every so often.

  • ArtFullyMe gold member
    January 30, 2007
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    At some point during the computer program of
    if I placate long enough 'They' \might -- just might\ find me worthy..
    there comes a time when one has to say 'if I placate and they find me worthy, what have they found worth in:

    me?
    or 'my version of 'Them' in myself?'

    if it's the latter my validity is false because the acceptance/the accolades/the praise et cetera, and so forth has never been about 'me' as 'I am' but for me as 'They' want me to 'be'.

    Perhaps that's enough for some, but it never has been for me..
    As I see it, it's a vicious dance if one allows their own self-containment to be defined by the variable nature of 'others', and worth in itself as it stands can hardly be called something quantifiable because it differs too greatly from one to another, from perspective to perspective unless it's within the bounds of some system that defines it in explicit terms.

    Which is probably why I've had to say, it is impossible for them to give me what I refuse to give myself each time I cross my values to be good enough
    instead of aiming further on the chance I might be great.


    great....great column.... thank you, this ought to be read by many.. it's full of ..insight.





    • JustBe gold member
      January 31, 2007
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      Thanks!

      I wish I could promote this. Why can't we promote columns? I want a BIG discussion.

      Looks like we think along similar lines. Hope you didn't have to come by it honestly. 'Course ... if it's bad to be honest, that might mean it's good to lie.

      Did that make any sense at all just now? I can't decide. Sort of like I'm making you choose between "wimp" and "liar." How in the hell did I manage that? It must be time to go to sleep.

      Honesty ... my motives are totally selfish: I want to be 50 by the time I'm 35. Right now I'm about 18 at 30.
      I love this emoticon:

      Thanks for reading and saying nice things. Drop by anytime. Drop by ... I don't do nearly enough of that.

      ~Morgan

      • ArtFullyMe gold member
        January 31, 2007
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        I noticed earlier, that we couldn't promote columns anymore when I tried to promote this. lol. I don't know but I thought well that's just silly... then just as quickly thought... hmmm what might get promoted and kind of twitched and followed it with... umm maybe it's a good thing.. ?

        I'm not sure if my age is going backwards or forwards anymore.
        I was about 10 at 4 and now that I'm over 40 I think I'm headed back to 10 .. lol

        and yes I came by it honestly, though we know that honesty is more often a lie than it ever is not. ..


        • JustBe gold member
          January 31, 2007
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          Tried to promote this? Flattered. Thanks.
          You may have a point. 10,000 posts of monosyllabic end-line aabb quatrain is damage enough. I shudder to think what I would have written a column about when I was 9.
          Heh, I suppose--the James Deans among us excepted--that anymore we all start out and end up in diapers. I saw this 100-year-old guy on TV a few years back who was fit enough to bowl on a regular basis. My average is higher than his, though. I do have that.
          I love this one, too:

          • ArtFullyMe gold member
            January 31, 2007
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            I don't want to take this too far off topic but I just had to respond to the bowling .. lol.
            I don't dare bowl -- I hurt people in the next lane.. co-ordination isn't my strong point, I throw left but being ambidextrous I can never decide which foot to step out with..

            oh I love the borg one .lol. and yes I suppose we do, but I'd prefer not to notice it happening.

  • MayDecemberSun
    January 26, 2007
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    Well, um...

    ...at the risk of sounding stupid after all that profoundness, turning 30 was the best thing that ever happened to me followed by the worst things that ever happened to me, things that made me question who I was and am and what I will be. I went bolistically bipolar (manic), ended my marriage and began a new relationship instantaneously and simultaneously, which made me question, "what is love? how can i love one person one day and someone else completely the next? two opposites? because they're opposites? is it really love, and what, exactly, is love?"

    And, "what is a moment?", since I'm noticing them more. I'm IN the ice cream more, to use your analogy. I am the ice cream that I am enjoying now. Each moment I make sure I notice and savor and relish. It's like not having water for so long and then suddenly having an abundance: you get in it, bury your face, immerse yourself, and then drown yourself, if there's enough. You can drown in a teaspoon of water if you're determined enough. And I am. So long I went without myself. So long I didnt know how to enjoy a moment or love or life and now that I have it all I intend to drown in it.

    I think I took your discussion a whole other place, or maybe not. Thanks for the chance to sound off.

    Ruby

    • JustBe gold member
      February 26, 2007
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      Seems to me you've gotten out of this just exactly what went into it. Same place, I figure.... No more than 2 doors down the block, anyway.

      • neurosine gold member
        February 27, 2007
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        It seems that since nothing can be argued due to the high conflagration of perceptions, we could combine the schools of thought, philosophy, and programming, and boil it all down to formal logic. After all logic gates are largely derived from concepts. modus ponens and modus tollens and venn diagrams are tools we can all use and love. If everyone could please format all their collaboration into formal declarations and statements, and deductions, then any old country lawyer could decipher all the dang blasted high hifalutin gobbledygook with a simple easy to read chart. Plus, it would make for a much more sound and concise conversation.
        (e.g.
        Poo Poo smells funny.
        I smell something finny.
        I might be smelling poo poo. )
        See? It's easy.
        Anyone who takes me very seriously gets a boot to the head.
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