How to get the most out of AP.
Let’s be really clear on this and understand why this site, or any truly interactive site is important and why and how it should be used.
I have always scribbled. Notes here and thoughts there and have shown them to nobody. Maybe one poem here and there but most of the time these scraps of poetry ended up in a shoebox as food for some very fat silver fish. Have never been published nor have I even sought to be published. Whether these were wonderfully innovative thoughts or the genesis of good poetry or my portal to eternal fame is actually irrelevant to the process of writing for I have never thought that way and any of the good writers I have spoken to have never thought that way. Writing is a disease that has no cure but to write. To simply have that overwhelming urge to write is the number one element you must have as a writer. Any reward or accolade that comes from it is simply the end result of what that process is. But at the heart of it- if you haven’t written anything new for a day or two, you start having that ‘climb the wall’ feeling, then you should read this.
The number one reason you should be using AP is to workshop and improve your work.
The wrong reasons include-
Crapping on in the chat room
Putting your thoughts down and hope you are going to get some love back
Being anonymous while still trying to be famous
Looking for praise
Winning competitions
The system, as much as Kevin and I have disagreed in some areas, is quite brilliant. You get points by commenting. The more you comment the more points and comments you will get back. Simple really. If you get enough points together you can highlight something you really want feedback on. People really like it you will receive applauses and get more points. The more you give, the more you get back. What a wonderful world! By commenting on others you are in effect advertising your own existence. If you are simply putting stuff out there and are peeved by the comments you are getting back then you may have missed the point of AP. By looking to properly critique other’s work honestly and constructively and acclaiming what is good and ripping into what is crap, what you are really judging is your own work with your own standards. When good writers compliment my work I smile, if they improve that work by pointing out something I am ecstatic. But it is very important that you critique honestly rather than just using this site as a congratulations club. Most comments on this site are pathetic and serve no value to the writer at all except that warm and fuzzy feeling of not being alone in a cold world. You will never improve if all you receive is kind words and praise. And you will never improve if you snap back against harsh critiques because others will not give you a critique again- good or bad. Try and understand what is being said. However, more than understanding what others are saying, you need to have the strength of your convictions and understand what you are writing. If you do not fully endorse what you yourself are writing, never use this site for affirmation. You must have that like it or lump it attitude to express your own voice- what you are looking for in feed back is the piece’s accessibility, fine points on structure and word use and generally whether or not the thing works for others, not just yourself. But without some understanding and strength of your own talent and your own way of expressing yourself, you will not be original and you will bob like a cork in the ocean never fully grasping what it is to be original. You will never fully love what you have written if you are simply trying to pander to the compliments of others. Don’t try and be fashionable, it’s a work shop- use it to gain skills so ultimately you are the fashion.
The second reason is to read the brand new works of others and to try and understand and appreciate what they are doing.
It has been said that when Earl Scruggs first showcased his three finger picking style while backing Bill Monroe in the late 40’s, another player was heard to say that he was going to take his own banjo home and make a hen’s nest out of it. Clapton said a similar thing when he first heard Hendrix play.
I occasionally get those feelings when I am reading stuff on AP. Most recently I read something by a great poet- it is called “Shadow Bird” It fascinates me for its structure, the ease in which it has been written and the realization as to the fantastic writing I am privileged to. Also it reflects many of the flaws in my own writing. There are a very small handful of writers at AP, who occasionally amaze me and I am here to tell you that I am not easily amazed. But you see, the strength is not just in the writing, it is in everything. And it is in knowing your own strength and developing. The way you do that is to read others. Not just read them but actually try and get what they are doing as most poetry falls into styles and patterns and good writers understand these patterns even if they appear random. Even the apparently haphazard musings because despite pieces appearing abstract in nature the good writer knows what they are doing and expresses what appears random in a very structured chaos. Many great poet's poem come in like a zoom lens, allowing you to see and become acquainted with their surrounds, and once they have you, then drags you closer and closer until you understand the point of the poem. It is very clever and you have to be good to do it so well and so often. In the hands of lesser writers it can read woefully. My strength is that I would rarely express a poem the same way. With subject and style forever changing, I am hoping I don’t bore myself. Why I need to read others who are more consistent in their style is that they have mastered aspects of that expression that I have not. In short I learn from them and it makes me a better writer; hopefully.
Find some writers who will challenge you and who you can challenge.
This is not an overt- I am going to challenge you. This is the challenge without a word being said- but deep down inside, one still competes. In the late 20’s, Broadway boomed and despite the sudden onset of depression, many of the great Broadway musical composers continued to be successful or moved to be equally as successful in Hollywood. One of the reasons why so many successful composers came out of this era was the genuine competition and learning they had with each other. The Gershwins, Roger & Hart, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin and a myriad of others were constantly trying to outdo the other. It happens in every industry. Beach Boys wanted to be better than the Beatles, etc and it is healthy. Motown was one constant battle of creative one upmanship with competing songwriting teams. But there is also a mutual respect and admiration for what the other achieves. In such an environment, when something so stunning is created that it leaves others knowing that they will never get near it- everybody cheers. AP should be that environment. These really good writers, by their very presence are a golden opportunity for others to not just learn but to actually compete against- and I don’t mean in the poetry comps on this site. I mean competing against the art. Never being satisfied with simply writing but a real desire to write better and to make the standard of what you create, exceptional. To a standard that is better than these innovative guns that dazzle AP on a daily basis. These writers are the sworn enemy of bland and beige and if you wish to improve, you too need to loath ordinary, safe writing.
Ask for help.
If you have problems with your writing, ask for help. But should you ask, it is not automatic that you will receive it. Sometimes such requests are welcomed; sometimes they are distracting. But be specific and be open. Some people have asked me for suggestions and were a little peeved when I said they should take up pottery. So go back over good writer’s history of comments and see how they have commented in the past and the piece they have commented on. Looking especially for the less than flattering critiques. Try and see what they are looking at. Enter and judging competitions are the best way to do this. Look through comps and find the judges who actually take pride in commenting, compare those comments against the writer’s own works. Sooner or later you will find a match. A writer you like who can be writing comments that you respect and going to be helpful to you. You should always try and enter your new work into comps. Try and avoid comps run by lazy people who have no interest or skill to help improve your writing. Don't go into comps just to try and win- but to learn.
1. To workshop and improve your work.
2. To read brand new works of others and to try and understand and appreciate what they are doing.
3. Find some writers who will challenge you and who you can challenge.
4. Ask for help.
5. Enter new works into comp
Since I have joined AP my thoughts and half chewed words have come out of that shoebox and onto this site. I have received on a daily basis the most generous, extraordinary comments that lift my spirits and challenge me to do better. Whether I am writing poems, short stories, songs, essays, opinion on the boards, letters to the moderators or articles such as these, it is all writing. I have nearly 200 trophies and over 150 people who have me on their favorite’s list and for that I am incredibly flattered. Since joining AP I have written over 500 brand new pieces, most have been inspired, written in five minutes flat on the spot as a result of a competition theme. Creativity! There is nothing like that feeling - nothing there one moment to hey presto, something to be proud of. Nothing really does that for me except writing. The rest of my stuff has been scribbled in crowded buses, at traffic lights, or my daughters’ basketball training etc. The fact is I am obsessed and this site fuels that addiction. But I am not self-obsessed and wish to improve. And this is how I am doing it.
I thank all my close friends I have made on this site for the gift of their words and the joy they pass on from creating them. I am a better writer today than I was when I first joined. The reason is my own writing fascinates me because no one in the world writes like me. And I am fascinated by the brilliance, originality from others who also have their own unique style and voice and the way they write are a gift to their readers. I continue to learn from them, be entertained by them and attempt to understand them…and all that ensures my writing will improve.
David Peter Robertson
YOU SHOULD READ THE COMMENTS BELOW AS SOME HAVE COME UP WITH INTERESTING POINTS OF THEIR OWN- THANK YOU TO ALL WHO COMMENTED
How to get the most out of AP.
Let’s be really clear on this and understand why this site, or any truly interactive site is important and why and how it shou
Let’s be really clear on this and understand why this site, or any truly interactive site is important and why and how it shou
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Comments
1 - 72 of 72
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food for thought
i found your column interesting and inspiring. yes reassuring that i was on a good site ...i thank you for your understanding how best to use the ap site and what i can do to improve my own work within the ap site boundaries...as we advance gain confidence and move forward i see a number of poets moving on to bigger and better ...books publishing and so on but i also see them here too ... i appreciate your words and thank you. -
As a new comer to allpoetry, I find it very difficult to critique other peoples work. I know what I like and don't like, but it doesn't mean, that a piece of work that I don't like, is bad. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,what is good to one is not always good to another, so, why not have a team of experts who know what they are talking about and then we can have some REAL critisism?
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oh the possibilities!
excellent column. have been thinking...would you like to have this featured in an edition of SPINDICATED?
not sure if it would be october as that one is more seasonally geared, however it would still fit as a feature write.
let me know.
it'd be good interaction for ya
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so where do I find these honest critiques I am not knowledgable enough to even give one but I'd love to receive Also, I don't really agree with getting more comments the more you comment because I have had very few comments and I've read and commented on several
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I like this alot..it's informative...
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I think you've hit upon some really good points here, and you've laid them out in a well thought out and concise manner. Not only from ourselves but from others do we learn to become better writers, and if everyone that reads this column takes one thing away from it to further their writing skills and the reasons they are here it's a great start.
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This is interesting and I think you have strong ideas and principles. Except for the middle where I kind of got lost (too long sentences, and grammar seemed a bit odd), I can say this is well written as well. I think most of what you say is right, though I do disagree with other ones. For example, I think sometimes (but read that SOMETIMES) encouraging comments (and by that, I mean the type of "this is great" comments, but with arguments) are sometimes useful too. I guess this is pretty controversial, but I personally think that's why today I write, and not sing which probably I like just as much, and also one of the reasons I feel my writing has improved since I started. But I do agree with you, that some AP members just leave comments of no value to gain points. Well... anyway, like I said, I enjoyed this. I like reading such columns because they have such strong opinions and arguments for them, as well. I don't like things stated without any argumentation. Thanks for sharing this.
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David this information is appreciated and needed, thanks for enlightening us on the realities of AP I myself only try to give rave reviews if I indeed feel the piece, some I critique
But I love this siteand I loved your information,Thank you so much! -
Fresh off a weeks banning and you post this very informative column what a lovely man you are. Nice job. (is that too shmoozy? )
Desiree
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Sanitarium Sanctuary!!!
Do I know this guy? Just kidding. Well met! Great write...the place needs some shock therapy from time to time- eh? -
excellent
i commend your assertions. indeed, at school and on the fringes of intellectual circles i received more than a little criticism. often cruel, but motivated by honesty, i discovered that to speak candidly of oneself is as important as speaking candidly of others. the remarks, while honest, may hurt, but they will not hinder providing that the writer is not motivated by praise and upmanship. it is a question of passion. most poets do not write for accolades, they are few and far between. they write because they love the characters like a painter loves his mixtures or an chemist his potions. for a writer, poet or etymologist the words, in varying usages and contexts is the reward of labor. -
This is very good, you said what everyone needs to know about AP and you made very good points.
Edited on Aug 22, 11:26 p.m. because ''. -
I have learned a lot here at AP. Mostly by reading other people's work and critiques.
But in the short time that SP has been up, I think I have learned even more. This could be just a sudden growth spurt of my own due to the cumulative effect of having read so much here on AP over the last couple of years and perhaps the more structured critiques at SP have triggered my understanding... . Hmmm...
As for critiquing, I am really a newbie when it comes to poetry, so I am shy when critiquing someone else's work. All I can say is what I like and don't like, but backing it up with learned examples of style, form, etc. is tough for me. Hence, I don't always comment and this is because I am unsure of the worth of my comments.
Also, when I read something that I just love, I feel kind of dorky saying "Holy cow, that was gorgeous" and not offering any criticism at all. I think that's partly because there are so many "wOw -- u r awsum!!1! keep writting" types of comments here on AP.
Then there are those pieces about which I can find nothing good to say. I always prefer to find something likeable in a piece to comment on as well as critiquing what doesn't work. Also, I can usually tell when a really poor writer does not want an honest critique and I simply don't bother remarking on those.
Bottom line, this is a heartfelt and nicely written piece that contains good advice for all aspiring writers here.
I agree with your message to come to AllPoetry with these intentions: to workshop and improve your work, read the work of others, find some writers who will challenge you and who can be challenged by you, ask others you respect for help and challenge yourself by submitting new work to competitions run by those you respect.
Lilac Moon
Edited on Aug 22, 11:08 p.m. because ''. -
Thank you for posting this as it was very informative. I am not a poet in the purest form of the word, because I do not like to color within the lines, but the comments from others are always helpful and usually very nice.
Again, thank you. This imparts a knowledge of AP that is helpful to all! -
This is very well written and very imformative!!! I like that you actually took the time out of your day to write this and bring it up here. I have not looked for being published, I personally do not think I am good enough for that, yet I have a total of 4 poems published....
But for me AP is a place to post my writes, read the works of others and challenge myself with some of the contest. I personally like people you run into on this site and have found that they all have their own purpose for viewing and writing poetry on this site. Most are very friendly and always willing to help, if asked. But others I have found just like to be left alone.
I tend to comment on poems which I read, not all, but most. Even if just to say thank you for sharing!
This has been a very impressive write you have here and I thank you for posting it and taking the time to write it. It really helps, I believe...
♥KIKI♥ -
Wahoo! Well said there buddy
~Jen
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a fabulous write; educative, informative and thought provoking ... >>> EM
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I suppose I should clap...
But I can't afford the antibiotics. -
Very informative David. You did an excellent job with this column. It is both educated and well worded. Indeed, there is some really great poems posted here, some good poets who post here and I have learned about new forms of poetry. I've learned alot at this site and some things I already knew but forgot were brought back to mind... but I don't need to go into detail about the bad now do I?
Anyway, this column is simply great David.
~Melissa -
What a generous and open minded column, David!! I feel that I'm one of those writers who write what strikes my mood at the time, and like you, most of what I write is written within a short period of time, maybe more than your five minutes, but within half an hour or so. I do love to write, have never really pursued being published, though I think it would be rewarding and may someday try for it.
This column is very well thought out, informative and helpful. I think we all, to one degree or another, love those comments that tell us how beautiful our work is but I for one, truly appreciate a real critique. I'm not a perfect writer, but I like to strive for perfection, so if someone points out a flaw, a typo, a misspelling, all the better. I think enough of myself and my writing to want it to be well presented ...and these are things I notice in other people's work as well.
I'm not a 'form concious' poet, don't even know the different forms, except for a few, so if a poem flows, reads smoothly, and is not pure jibberish and/or crap, I can appreciate it. As a Greeter we come across quite a lot of this kind and still need to make some sort of comment ...that's often where a little diplomacy comes in play.
The point I'm trying to make, is that we're all different, have different inspirations, emotions, reasons for writing....aside from that pure NEED to write which you speak of.
You've stated very well some of the concepts of writing and I applaud your column.
Okay...I'll shut up now
Dee
Edited on Aug 22, 8:21 p.m. because ''. -
Dear David, as you know and you yourself have told me, I'm not a poet, but it has been said with love from you, as I know my poems give you the solace you need from time to time. This makes me happy as many other poets have said the same thing as you did, that my poems have a spirit passing through it, as a lot of my work does come from spirit, but not all of them are poets so I have to try to decipher what they write, but sometimes I'm amazed at the words I post and think "Did I write that?"
I know you have said my poetry has improved immensly since we first met when you came on AP and with Hughs help it will keep on improving, even though I will never understand the lingo of meters, rhythm and all the different styles, English was never my good subject at school, only because I was too shy to say to teachers "I don't understand the difference between nouns, pronouns, adjectives, etc etc, can you show me?" But I automatically know which one to use.
OHH boy, I'm rambling on.
David, you know I always love your work no matter what it is, as you have a brilliant mind, and as you know I've only ranted once as that's not me, but since then I have become friends with the one I ranted about, we chide each other all the time now.
You have written a lot of good points here that everyone should read. I like to go into contests when a subject inspires me to write a new one, I've given up on prewrite ones as everything gets dumped in them, and there's no way the host is going to read and comment on all of them, the trophies don't worry me, though it is nice if one is recieved.
If I had to give a bad critique I would rather not leave a comment, with GOLD members it's hard to visit their page as they know you have been there and not left a comment, then I get an IM asking me "Why, what's wrong with my poem?" that's one thing I object about GOLD users as sometimes I like to just visit and read, but I feel compelled most times to leave a message on their Author page so they don't come after me.
I think I'd better shut up and close this comment, at least when I applaud it the points will go to you and I only lose two, but for YOU, it's worth it my wonderful Friend, you are always dear to my heart you know that you are one of my few favourite men on this site.
Love you dearly.
Hugs Joan
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What if people just want to get things off their chests, I occasionally comment on peoples poems but most of the time its just surfing around Ive got a little over 1000 comments/critics but mostly for people on my favorites, and theyre on my favorites for a reason. I dont look to be told Im an awesome writer because the reason Im writing is NOT to be told so, dont get me wrong I just need to get things off my chest at times.. and just because I dont comment doesnt mean I havent read the piece.. sometimes I read it 2/3/4 times.. others I read it 10 times and love it but dont comment on it. It really just matters on what kind of mood Im on. But Ill admit I thought this little column here was very helpful because at least twice a month I see a thread on the boards asking how to get published.
Malzy -
What an excellent column and advice¡!
I would just add that I think the classes are well worth a go too – even if you are one of the few who do know it all, (and who does¿?) I found them to be inspirational in taking my thoughts into new areas; so probably excellent if suffering from writer’s block, or brain freeze!
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Ahhh haaa.. Looking back on the stuff I wrote when I first started? Omgosh I could scream I picture how others felt when they read it (bless their hearts) and even now I think I learn something new everyday.. Your skill at this is great by the way.. You gonna teach or are you a teacher? Hmm makes me wonder at taking a class on here now.. Take Care, Catressa
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I am thankful that you took the time to write this so I can read it. I enjoy writing and sometimes wonder why! I know that I need work and look forward to learning what is being said to me or what I read. Sometimes I read a poem and it seems it means totally something different to me as it did to someone else as I read comments left for the same poem. I have the erge to write at times, it really pulls at me and the only way out is to write it. Alot of what you said here has helped me just look at what I write and read more closely.thanks alot...xo
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Not only is this worth reading but also worth using
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Great suggestions on how to get the most out of AP! All new users could benefit from visiting this article upon membership. I think it would help improve the learning curve, saving newbies precious time and frustration.
As someone who's shared this compulsion to write since the age of six, I related to much of what you said about the process of writing being a joy unto itself, and the dryspells agonizing.
AP has been a place where I truly feel I've improved, and look forward to developing a stronger voice through collaboration with this type of peer support.
I was just telling someone the other day what a privileged pleasure it is to read the works of 'pre-published' poets, its akin to when I was a teenager and into the garage band/indie scenes of my home town. There is something so invigorating about exposing yourself to streams of media and thought not available through mainstream or traditional means. I've encountered styles, genres, and subjects I never would have contemplated before, or even those I have contemplated, but had no access to, not knowing where to look.
I do my best to be real in my critiques and eagerly accept critiques of my own work. I have to admit that sometimes I find it much easier to skip a poem I don't understand or even really just plain don't like, than critique it. If I have nothing to add in the way of suggestion for my criticism, I usually pass by. And I do sometimes indulge in a quick note of simple appreciation, as I enjoy receiving those myself.
Kevin is a visionary and sites like this, I predict will do much for the fabric of society as more and more people are able to become empowered to be creative and to find courage to share their development with others from around the globe. As the world shrinks, our minds expand.
Thanks for such a thought provoking article. -
Outstanding!
What a wonderful write! I agree with things you have said here. One must read and develop the habit of reading and offering constructive criticism to others. Only when you read you learn. You said it very well. I have been inspired by so many poets on this site. They've really been very nice to me and in return have helped me grow in poetry. I didn't know anything besides free verse when I joined AP. Now, in less than a year, I know more than 6 different forms of poetry! I don't know where else I'd be able to find that(in life outside the e world and on it too). I invite you to come and read my poems whenever you have the time.
All the best and keep penning!
Charishma -
The enthusiasm in this essay , never mind the sound opinion and advice, is contagious. Reading it was like wnating to grab the screen and shake it, shouting 'Yes, that is how it should be!' It is competition, competition with oneself, measured against those other writers you admire. Almost like a gambler who studies the tactics of the other players, hopes the cards will fall right for him next time, or that he will play the cards he has more imaginatively. Maybe he will win the next hand, maybe not, but he learns and tries again to win again, be better. In writing of course, the winnings are the pleasure other people get from reading, the pleasure you get when that tricky line zaps you at the most peculiar moment. Maybe you said something in way someone else had not thought of before and gave them an idea, made them think. Most of the time you will never know ; here hopefully someone will tell you if you get it right, or how to get it right next time if you didn't.
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Sorry,
I lost it half way through.... be back to pick up the rest when my brain recharges
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Well worth reading -
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A very honest column. We have the same philosophy of AP, constructive and well taken criticism is the way. Also the way it was written avoided condenscension.
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the problem with most critics is they just critize instead of showing HOW to improve one's work. it does no good if one just bang's one over the head. and that's what I find in alot of places on the net. people need improvment yes. but a helpful critque are far & few between.
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Excellent Advice
Well said, David! As you mentioned, so many who post here are in it for the love, their insecurities clearly evident; as is their lack of desire for constructive criticism. And, I agree there are some problems with A/P: one of which we both are aware!
We only can hope that many members will read this insightful article and take with them the wisdom it imparts.
The only suggestion I would make, as an editor, is that many of your paragraphs are far too lengthy. Each easily could be divided, if not once then several times.
As you can see, I am back; although, not up to full steam.
Give my love to Ern and feel the hug I just sent your way!
Lots of love and hugs, B♥n
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i think its sad that allpoetry has to post an article to show people what are good reasons to be here. Unfortunately, I know people who were here just to get "love" for their work.
I'm not really here for workshop, but finding poets is true enough.
This was an interesting article. It sort of highlights how the AP community has become basically two or three sets of people-the people who are here to comment and get comments back and the people who are basically just here for the sake of being here. Now, the people in the first catagory have their differences sometimes, but at least they're here for the right reasons.
I know some people who should definately read this. Thanks for sharing. I like your more humble approach, you didnt try to make the reader/poet feel degraded by seeming like you thought you were better. I think that was a good way of writing this.
~blessings~
~rora -
Words of Wisdom, David - bravo, to you my Australian friend! I so agree with you! I have learned so much since I joined AP in March 2004 and the thing that I enjoy most is reading and learning...the opportunity to grow. Definately not the chatting or the group chats, lol. I have met some wonderful people on here...still I hold on to my believe that this is not "real life" - it is something that is very addictive yes, but I am here for the sake of poetry...the rest are "nice-to-haves". Being in the human professions it is quite easy for me to spot the "safe ones" amongst the thousands of people (not all of them poets, lol) here on AP. But being a member of AP has really contributed to my poetic skills because here are great poets too. I am a sucker for growth and development and I think AP is doing a great job to advance those that want to improve their poetic abilities and skills! A wonderful column, well thought out, with balanced views! I am a bit disappointed in the quality of comments in general - even on the new poetry site (Sharepoetry) - but...the feedback is still great. I find competitions to be very inspiring at times; it is a source of inspiration and helps to guide and focus thoughts....trophies, well that is always a subjective thing (but good for the ego too, lol)!! I enjoyed reading this - thank you for the time you've put into this. Great to read something intellectual too! Best wishes from SA (I won't say anything about rugby.....)!!
~ Nicolette
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excellent
David, This is such a good and positive write about A~P and hw to make the best of what is to offer here.
Extremely well thought out and penned.
Thankyou for posting it. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading it as I am sure many members will
Regards,
Ann
Edited on Aug 22, 10:34 because 'gr typo gremlins in my keyboard'.
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I appreciate you comments very much. In general, I like the ambiance of All Poetry--from the youngest, who are struggling with questions of meaning and love, and the oldest, who are not going gently into that good night. The settings and colors are my complaint. Our writing is best judged and understood on a plain white background. All the hoopla and coyness with these background designs is juvenile and divertive. I don't think you mentioned this at all. I feel it is an imposition on my eyesight and my time to present poetry on backgrounds that are too light or dark to read. I dare say, if you get rid of the background settings you will get rid of alot of the attitudes that you are down grading.
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Thankyou for saying many things that have needed to be said, ever since I joined the site in May. Many people on this site use it as a club, and are not serious at all about poetry or anything pertaining to it, and should find somewhere else to crap around. Anyway, I could go on for ever, just wanted to leave a word of thanks for stating some things that needed to be said.
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Well, I'm back. Thank you for listening to my plea You've discussed many reasons why this site is unique, challenging and indeed a place to improve. Like the falfa gal I just want to point out that many people come here that do not label themselves as 'writers'; they come to try and express themselves in some way, some come to skip in the pond, many just want to read.
I like getting good, constructive feedback and I'm woefully insulted if I have a typo and nobody notices. But in the end, I'm thankful for the attaboys too- it helps propel me on- to write more, write better. Indeed Sharepoetry is a good place for such honest reviews as many wish to receive. I will give thorough reviews here to, and you know what makes me do so when I read a new author? Author's comments.
If it's a personal piece and they aren't looking for suggestions, I appreaciate knowing that. If they really want the nitty gritty- well, I've been known to send out some whoppers! It'd be nice if everyone stated their expecations in the author's comments. Kind of like a yellow brick road heyyyy uh oh time to wrap it up here. Well expressed piece you have here and I applaud you for your wisdom. -
I'm going to be honest. I didn't finish this. I agree with a lot of what you're saying - it, in fact, goes along with what I was saying in the one column I posted. However, I really think you could have organized your thoughts better into a more polished piece. If you're going to talk to people about the importance of taking pride in their work, and in striving to improve, then you really ought to take more time to make your time on the pulpit more pristine.
The biggest problem here is that you didn't hold your focus all that well. There were areas where you were diverted into speaking of yourself, and of your own writing or experiences, but that were not entirely like anectdotes that held signifigant bearing on the point you were trying to make. But that should be the only reason for including something like that in your piece: to ground the information in your own humanity, and to establish your standing as an authority by citing examples of your experience with what you are speaking about. After you do that, you should move on, not linger on as you did. I'm not making this up, believe me. This comes straight from my old English Composition textbook.
Perhaps keep this in mind in the future. And keep up the good fight. I do believe in trying to improve ourselves through this site.
Mike -
Good one David. Thanks for posting.
Don
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TIME will always be the determining factor. If I enjoy a peice I either try to echo it in my own style or it is a problem peice try to give insight or answers in a poetic answer. I'm been beaten for this a time or two, I guess some would rather have the old...nice work man...standardize phrase. Usually if someone cant find something to say that sayed it's forced rhymne...well all rhymne is forced or it wouldn't be a separate style now then would it. I calculate I have read well over 300,000 poems on here in the past 3 years. Time and bad hand both limit my ability to comment on every one as often I read off site due to interrupts, how ever nice they may be, online...
You can often tell when someone doesn't understand what you have wrote or you hit too close to a chord because no comment will be left. Thousands of points have been spent will no comment left, even tho I would before a bad one over none just so I know who has read and can read on of theirs in return. I don't judge what they said about mine when I leave my comment on theirs. Each person will have their own taste in poetry and we can't fault them for that. Not everyone is gonna like cottage cheese or the same beer right...
Those who have taken time to read me know I usually have TWO messages in every poem as duality is the key of life I believe.
So those who only glance through my work probably miss half of what is there. I written on almost every subject there is tho few would know it for they read one and then think you entire collection is the same. I figure I'm around 4,000 or more poems since I joined here, tho many are lost to cyberspace now since you can't access backward anymore past page 30 or something and when someone deletes a poem the comments are deleted too, so many poemed responces I have written will never be seen as I didn't back them up on friends pages so they are no more. With life and work as it is, time will even become more limited so I will have less to write and view, not my choice, just how life is some time. I don't believe there is a thing called writter's block. If you can't think of nothing you can write of nothingness or just look around the room and write about something there. I written about clocks, sidewalk crack, being electricity and dozen of other nonstandard subjects. It is only when we confine ourself to a single style that we get writers block for anyone who thinks outside the box will have a billion poems just waiting to flow from them. I used to write 10 or more poems a day before the 2 limit crackdown went into effect. I could easily write a book a day if I had the time, true not all Shakespeare quality but probably worth a read just for the different approach to life that many would show. Life may deal us problems and situations but it is ALWAYS us who will determine HOW we will react to it and therein lies the entire
secret of happiness.
Eddy -
Ok. This was effort on my part. My eyes arent as young as they used to be and I sometimes get lost in long articles and comments. Nothing against the writer, I just sometimes have readers block. My own childhood experiences as a "misunderstood poet" also interferes with my-- umm -- hearing. While I am not here to win anyones approval, I am interested in anything that makes my words more readable to a larger group of people. Like many of us, I have good things to say, but what is the point if my message is not heard because my language is far too proper and pretty.
I am relatively new to the site and I am not about to go rampaging through people's expressions of themselves cutting them to bits just because they are not my style. I would personally like to learn to critique without pointing out that you didnt use uppercase on all your "I"s, etc. I want to be able to appreciate the creative touches you purposely add for effect or because it is just your style.
At the same time, when I am critiqed and given suggestions, I would like the suggestion to be clear. If I am told a piece needs polish, but I am not told how, then I dont know what that means.
I truly dont want to feel that I am sitting in english class being graded. Where everything is about rules and rhyme. I never want to feel the way I did when I was the only kid in the 3rd grade who wrote a poem instead of an essay when the assignment was poetry. My teacher told the class that my mother wrote it--which was not true.
I dont want to provoke anyone to throw all their feelings in a box and hide them from the world. I do; however, want to learn to critique in a way that is beneficial to the writer and encourages them to continue in their efforts. -
David, what a brilliant insight and wisdom you share in this article, I must agree, we are so fortunate to be allowed to interact with some very talented people, to learn, to grow as a writer and to quench our daily thirst to write...i can not imagine ever leaving this site...it is rather like a beacon in the storm. i have no desire to be published nor famous, i do not enter competition for the trophy, I seek constructive criticsm, ideas and thughts about my work from people way more talented than I.
My writing is rather like a purging of sorts, i am almost 62 and my life has been full and I feel so blessed. When i share the good and the bad, it is like cleaning out a messy closet and arranging every thing neatly...clears the clutter.
i applaud you, sir.
;f freda -
well written and useful
Good article well written. I fully agree that any community like this should never become a 'you scratch my back, I will scratch yours' kind of mutual admiration society. Flattery stinks, particularly when it is mutual.As for me, I just leave without commenting, if I find something that is not up to my liking. After all, it is eminently possible that the piece is genuinely good but my background makes me think it is not nice. As you have pointed out somewhere in your article, when you give your opinion, you are not judging the author, but in reality only judging yourself.
Having said that I felt your article would have benefitted greatly, if you had introduced cross headings, which makes it easier for the urgent surfer to go to the relevant section directly -
I was lost and drifting today, until I read this. I thought I had reached the point of despair I always encounter after a huge great writing binge, but now, I think, I have found my anchor. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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that was wonderful to read and very inspiring. somehow i never think i can improve as i read some others poems and they are sooo good and i could never write as they do it would just be me imitating something and therefore wouldnt be real but maybe some of it might rub off if i keep reading. its an influence at least. i write when wht i am thinking exites me though i rarely read it again as i get too shy about it and later think oh my god did i really write that some of it is just for fun and written for certain people to make them laugh. this makes me want to read more. i hope i can get better. thanks for the link and your comments dp
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Very open and honest piece covering a lot of points, though I can't help feeling that you have may up to a point have wasted your time, the people who need to read it won't because "wow, too long my man". I often wonder if some people who leave comments actually read what I have written, the comment is so off pat or totally irrelevant to the piece. I know it is hard to find an original comment sometimes, but an honest original comment is much better than, "WoW!!! That was FANTASTIC! I just looooove your writing" which if you were to follow the person, you would find on almost everything they 'read'.
I baulk at some of the pieces written (mine included) and the inane chatter of idiots in the chatterbox but this is a community site, it's a reflection of the real world and as such you have to accept that people come here for a number of different reasons. To be totally honest I don't much care for posts like the piece you have written, it smacks to much of my school days, some of us don't actually want to compete nor perhaps get better, we write purely for ourselves and I am not ashamed to admit I enjoy good honest praise as do you, but nor do i worry when someone says, that was crap. I write purely for the enjoyment of it and the freedom of it, if it gets to the stage where I am worried about what i write or who i offend, I know i will never write another thing.
Barb
pssst.. No criticism intended
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Improving one's work is fine but there are those who don't know when to stop - who are so full of themselves and want to rewrite your whole poem - when does it stop being something you wrote that came from within to something a panel of "know it all" poets pick apart just to make themselves feel like pros?
When does it stop being helpful and start making you second guess everything you write down. I rarely change my stuff - i never post until i am happy with it...i realise at times you do get good advice and it does need to be changed - but i am not for my poems becoming a community project until it's something that even i no longer recognise. SharePoetry is an excellent site for those who want to rewrite and revise.
Edited on Aug 22, 7:41 because ''. -
Absolutely everyone should read this, AP is brilliant but a lot of people just comment nicely when a lot more could be taken out of the poetry than just 'this is great'.
Sharepoetry is an excellent start. -
Most of what you say here is spot on, although there are just a few things I would pick up on, when commenting on another persons work, you can usually get a sense of that person from the piece you have just read, and if I feel that this writer, is young or lacking in confidence then I am not going to damage that by giving negative feed back, instead I look for the good, and there is usually some to be found in each piece, and consentrate on that. I do find that, and I am sure this is the same for most people, I have a core of 'friends' who read each piece I post, and who do give me honest advice, so I trust their comments above all others, and have even delete poems on their say-so. So as I said in the begining, on the whole, what you have said is right, but a touch sweeping in its advice, and as my mother would say, if you can't say anything good don't say anything at all, so always try and find at least one positive in each piece, it makes the criticism easier to swallow.
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Everyone should also check out sharepoetry.com. While both sites are somewhat connected (you keep the same name & all) but it's a little harsher on that site- you will not get so many empty critiques.
I do love the community feel of AP, no site can replace that, but I do think we should all use it as a tool and not as a friendster type deal- -
You are obviously right, especially about the way we give feedback here, I agree evryone should be forced to read this and then maybe we could learn more from eachother.
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Go to sharepoetry.
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Well stated.
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*claps*
very nicely said. I think this should be required reading for EVERYONE on AP...
NiKKi
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Thank you for posting this, David. Great job, hope lots of folks on here can read it and gain something from it. Nice to see someone talking about the positive aspects, you have highlighted them nicely.
becky -
David,
You are among the handfull of writers on this site who I truly admire. You have a remarkably diverse talent. Critic, poet, philosopher; all of these hats you wear with distinction. I can't tell you the number of times I've been inspired by one of your pieces. I want to thank you for that because that is, as you say, the way I improve my own work. Thanks again for sharing your marvelous talents with us.
Sincerely,
Leo Long -
Yeah, I agree.
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When first coming to AP I was producing some pretty awful poetry. I found that stuff in a lot of cases was more widely accepted though because a lot of the people commenting were still at that same writing level. With the help of a lot of talented poets and much reading I owe a lot of my knowledge to this site. As you can probably tell, I share many of the same sentiments for this site as you do (Although I have become more of a fan for SP). Still, this was a refreshing column. Take care and God bless.
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What a great column. It was well written and layed out. I agree with your point about the criticism. I prefer authors dont even bother praising me at all (unless they want to applause.)
I found 1 sentence to be grammatically confusing "A writer you like writing comments that you respect and are helpful to you."
I think I know what you meant.. but I'm not certain.. and I think this sentence needs a revision. Cheers! -
well said!
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Some very good words and advice here. I find inspiration is the so many ways the same thing can be said with each persons 'flavor' so to speak. It's difficult reading some things at times as the words themselves don't appeal to me, or the message is 'way too metaphorical' and seems to be written for the sole purpose of confusion. Either way, I have many small text files on my different computers with snippets of lines or thoughts that I too, at some point, will have the recipe to put them out in final form. Thanks for sharing !
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i came in through the back door [fave's) so have not eaten points...
i enjoyed much you have shared and agree. I myself am not in a place right now where gratuitous commenting is part of my everyday routine here on AP. Thus my applause and comments about this are not given lightly today...
Excellent!
Elaine
Edited on Aug 22 because ''. -
This is great...I hope many people will read this and take your advice to heart. Nice job interspersing bits of humor in there with the informational content.
Lorena -
It was good that you brought up what are probably the most vital aspects of becoming a good writer--1.) working hard to improve, and 2.) finding ways to be inspired if no inspiration comes to you immediately. Sometimes I get hit with a great idea, but I have to work to make it look and sound right when I'm putting it down into words in a notebook. Having talent doesn't hurt either, but isn't really necessary. I believe Grandmaster Josh Waitzkin said something to that effect, "Talent is cheap. You have to put in the work." I've gotten sick of coming across people claiming to be "poets" that apparently can't deal with receiving honest comments on their work; I imagine the same applies to you, as well.
Of course, I'm merely echoing your sentiments in here, so I'll just close this comment out and say you're dead-on with this. The comments I've received on this site have been, on the whole, good ones, particularly the perfectly honest and constructive comments I've received from writers such as yourself and other great writers. I can only hope and expect to continue to see such a high quality of craftsmanship in the future, as I plan on giving it out myself. -
"my own writing fascinates me because no one in the world writes like me."
—And that, boys and girls, is exactly the phrase you will do yourselves proud to reiterate for yourselves. -
Okay. I read half of it and really like what I'm reading here. But could you please left align it? If you don't mind. I want to finish reading it but [rubs her eyes] so sensitive. I could always paste into word hmmmm
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Two thumbs up!!!
ARE YOU IN MY BRAIN MAN?!?!?...STAY OUT lol
but anyways this is a DAMN good compelling read and as much as odd this might severely sound i think for starters that ppl who get/grab "hissy fits" for someone being brutally honest about his/her own works must keep in mind that this is just only the internet and isnt like someone is gonna jump through their own comp, travel the net lines and jump out to the other person's comp to kill him/her. Morover, I believe what your column and my column(somewhat similar only shorter)both speak the exact and identical message no matter how different the wording is done and yet, sometimes I think ppl tend to be more harsh on themselves because they think that since no one has read their works that it's going to be the end of the world somehow whereas when it comes to me and my works, I'm pretty much like "either you like it or you don't" attitude but that's just me either way it goes .
Keep up the awesome job D P Robertson
-Rae -
Brilliance TRUE GOLD.
Aloha, D P Robertson,
Thank you for sharing a guide that will help all of us improve.
Namaste Blessed Be, for your guiding light and heartfelt insights.
I am bookmarking this for future reference. All the best to you and yours eternally.
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I only wish I had the time to compose all the thoughts that others have inspired me with. You offer some well thought out advice here and I can't think of anything that would make things any plainer or more precise than what you have here David. This is a great site as you say. Even when poets disagree, for the most part, this is wonderful learning tool for those who seriously desire to expand their horizons. I must admit that I wish more poets would READ. Comments are usually indicative of how much thought someone gives a piece and I have read far too many that were vague or generic and you just know that they merely clicked and typed something for the sake of gathering points. You cannot learn anything if you do not read others and study the various forms and styles and word choices. Kudos for some great thoughts shared here!
♥ Kimberly
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