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Im just wonderind whats your favorite type of poetry. Typically I like poems that deal with a dark and depressing or a violent ones. Rhyming isnt a issue with me, but i dont write poems that rhyme. So whats yours?
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i agree dark and depressing rocks rhyming on the other hand is a must and obviously you must suck
if you don't rhyme poems actully your kind of talking about music that don't have to rhyme
one question ARE YOU BLONDE :/ -
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Rhyming is a must? Forget the blonde jokes, do you even have a head?
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Very humorous stuff. Did you think that up on your own just now?
So, why must poetry rhyme? And where does that leave all the poets who have published free verse in the past 100 years or so?
Songs rhyme.
Nursery rhymes rhyme.
Greeting cards rhyme.
Poetry touches - that is all that can be said with any certainty.
My mom is 70. Maybe you should work on pleasing someone your own age. -
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It probably leaves the vast majority of them in the dust.
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It does if you adhere to the supposition that poetry must rhyme.
Not all poetry rhymes.
Not all that rhymes is poetry.
So we ask: what will last? Will the dearth of rhyming poetry in the last century be seen as a dearth of poetry? I truly doubt that will occur, but it remains to be seen.
This conversation has been going on for years, and it is all really beside the point. Poetry just is - some rhymes, some does not.
Anyone, I repeat for emphasis, ANYONE, who thinks that poetry should exclude one or the other because "all rhyme sucks" or "it has to rhyme" is engaging in a form of snobbery - and that is a big part of why poetry has fallen into such disfavor over the past 150 years or so.
I like Rembrandt and I like Picasso, I even like the Impressionists. I want them all to exist so I can appreciate all of them.
I like Richard Brautigan, Bob Dylan, and William Blake. Dylan Thomas. Tennyson. Yeats. Ferlinghetti. Kenneth Patchen. Chaucer. I want them all to exist so I can appreciate all of them. -
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I'm SO glad you LIKE Rembrandt, Scott! LOL
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Your point being?
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Jesus Christ Superstar was a great Opera
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I thought it might lead to
a dearth of prose
it's not like we're confined to the orthongal borders of the page -
I think people often say Rhyme when they mean flow.
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thank god
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Lemon Pledge?
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I don't like dark, depressing, or violent poems. I'm not partial to any certain genre, actually, but the poem has to have a flow for me to enjoy it.
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I can see what you mean Barbara, I read the Iliad (in translation) & it just seemed like a bloodbath to me. Many people separate Shakespeare's poetry from the plays. In my opinion the plays themselves contain some of the best poetry. Often it's the sentiment or ideas behind them, sometimes it is the feel of the words themselves. A lot is to do with the sheer sound & rythm I think.
I keep trying to read Langland's 'Piers Plowman', I have trouble with the middle English but I just love the sound of it. Maybe it is the midlands accent I can hear in both Langland & Shakespeare. I was born not far from where both of them were born. I can often hear the English midlands accent in them both. Unlike standard received pronunciative English, the midlands dialect has flatter vowel sounds & is in many ways closer to an American accent. We pronounce 'Path' 'bath' & 'Laugh' with a flat 'a' as in 'cat'.
I think that is important to remember that when you read any poetry it probably had a sound & flow that was peculiar to its author. -
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The American pronunciation of words like bath IS the Old English way. It wasn't until the 17 or 1800s that it became fashionable in England to pronounce it in the way that it is now common: tomAEto/tomAHto.
Where you live in the English Midlands preserved the old, for some reason, just as it was preserved in the colonies. -
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...it depends on regional accent too. Before the railways, vowel sounds could vary so much from county to county that it was hard to translate (e.g. the extreme sharp of Liverpool to the ultra-enlongated of Norfolk). The so-called 'correct' English accent is, as you say, a construction - and one limited to the South East (traditional power base of the government). Its growth was encouraged to assist with understanding around the same time that time in the Uk was standardised (we used to have Bristol Time, London Time, Liverpool Time etc' - fine when it took days to travel anywhere, but a no-no when the railways meant you might arrive somewhere before you set out!). Hence it is called 'Standard English' as in regulated English - the saying 'the Queen's English' was simply marketing; many of the Royals spoke with foreign accents at the time.
Shakespeare would have spoken using a pronounced Midlands accent- interestingly, many of the ships that went on to the 'New World' stocked up in docks near there with craftsmen from the forests round there. It's likely that their accents carried to the new world.
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My favorite reaches into the soul and makes me sad or gives me the 'ping' when I finally understand what I've been thinking because someone wrote it down. I also like prose poetry, I don't know if that's an actual term but Wuthering Heights is so poetic and so is This Thing of Darkness, both books.
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Ea,it didn't become fashionable to pronounce the words like that. It is a phenomenon known as anticipatory vowel modification, vowel drift is common in all languages. In the English midlands there is little or no Dane influence so our accent reflects the old Anglian/Mercian accents of the the Angles who settled there after the collapse of the Roman empire. Saxon English was not the same (Essex, east-Saxons, Sussex, south-Saxons etc) the term Anglo-Saxon is a bit of a misnomer because it implies a hybridization. Which it wasn't.
As middle English developed the complicated nouns & adjective inflectives gave way to a more simplified system. During the great vowel shift learning & knowledge shifted down towards the capital. The language shifted & simplified with it. Languages simplify as they get older as a rule anyway. They may have more words, & particularly in English; phrasal verbs, but syntactically they tend to simplify.
(see: A Book of Middle English, Burrow & Turville-Petre, The Story of Poetry, Schmidt, The Oxford Companion to English Literature, Drabble,Ed, & Fowler's Modern English Usage). -
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No, it was a conscious affectation put forth by London society that was even imitated in the colonies at one point and didn't thrive, according to Mencken.
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Standard English was encouraged in the Army and through most government jobs (during industrialisation, when regional accents had caused 'communication gaps'), and thus became a construct associated with social climbing. Of course, schools the adopted it as the so-called correct way to speak, so a tendancy for the working person to preserve their regional accent whilst the 'grammar school boy' or middle classes would speak in a more uniform manner was developed. It was something that ran alogside vowel drift (a more 'organic' change).
I was taught that at university, when studying how to pronounce the words from literature from different regions. I can't cite one book now (it was some years ago) but all the texts used appeared to acknowledge the drift AND the standard English being encouraged by government in the mid to late 1800s. One of the lecturers was himself American (a J Hyde) and commented on how it was possible to trace where the majority of settlers in various regions of America came from through their accents. The same is true of Australia (who, had accent development been 100% sudden, might have spoken in a quasi-American accent now) - vowel sounds really reflect the now-lost cockney and East Anglian dialects, as these were the ports where most military influxes and transportations in the 17-1800s and 'fresh starts' in the early twentieth century departed from.
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Well, I don't want to get into an argument but I am an English lecturer & it isn't what I was taught at University.
There are a lot of odd theories about language. I can see affectations in dialect & idiom but accents, like pronouns, tend to have an inherent stability. The accusitive 'me' for instance can be traced right back to its Indo-European roots. Most people say 'It's me' instead of the correct 'It is I' because of the way English has changed syntactically since the 17th century. (see Webster's Collegiate)
English is descended essentially from Frisian-Germanic.Between the 5th & 11th centuries the Germanic tribes that settled in Britain started to fan out somewhat. This was the first great split in English because the languages started to become disparate. (This was before the Danelaw)
Most Old English Nouns were also inflected according to case (nominative, accusative, genitive, vocative & dative)after a long while these forms started to become so different* in different parts of the country eventually some form of standardization was needed.(They still exist in dialect, thee; accustive, Northern. Yeow; dative, Midlands)
*Chaucer makes much use of these differences in the Canterbury tales.
I am not too familiar with Mencken, but I know some of his theories have been challenged.
If you want to look more into the origins of English dialect I suggest: Oxford English, A Guide to the Language OUP, The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology OUP, & The Adventure of English by Melvyn Bragg.
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Yes, theories are constantly challenged and shifting - perhaps it's been a while since you were taught in University?
I'm only addressing the broad 'a' versus the flat one in my statement, and typically, (for a lecturer) you have now taken this into very complex territory, but I'm an American living in Germany and am aware of how English is descended from the German at this point.
By the way, is your avatar Hunter S. Thompson?
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Sorry, I must have got carried away. Well, I graduated University in '95 which isn't that long ago. I nearly used an avatar of Hunter S. so I take that as a compliment, but actually it is me. Taken on a phone! You can't see the beer that I am drinking in the picture.
I was saying something very similar to someone in New York on a Dostoyevsky forum the other day about vowel sounds in our language.
On the Eastern seaboard, maybe because of immigrant waves over the years, there have been noticable changes in the 'a' sound. A lot of New Yorkers use an elongated 'a' sound in certain nouns particularly. An example that comes to mind is the Datsun (now Nissan) car. Many Americans use a longer 'a' than I would in that name. I would use the same as in 'bat'. I just think this maybe is a case of anticipatory vowel modification.
Funny what you said about Hunter S. Thompson, I only recently found a copy of 'Fear & Loathing in America'. I haven't read it all yet. -
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I have lived in three very distinctly different areas of New York state where you will hear a great variation with the 'a' in words like 'apple' from the northeast to central NY. You get to the big apple and it's too diverse to even pin down.
I have only ever heard Datsun as dot-sun. I have never heard Dat as in bat even though I have lived all over NY, and in PA, Ohio, Arizona and CA. -
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Though come to think of it, pronouncing it like hat would sound like the way Finger Lakers pronounce apple, so I can imagine it.
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well, I meant the way I would pronounce it as an Englishman from the Midlands.
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Is Datsun pronounced "Dot-son" or "Doubt-son" or "Daht-son" in the Midlands? Also, is "sun" pronounced "suhn" or "sawn"?
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Dat as in 'bat' & sun as in 'bun'. It is a myth that everyone from the midlands sounds like Jasper Carott or Ozzy Osbourne. As in any area there is a vast amount of diverse accents & dialects.
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Oh yeah, Celadia, I know what you mean about Wuthering Heights. You should check out Emily's poetry. She was by far the best poet in her family. Mind you, Branwell (who was close to Emily) was very good. It's a shame he never really developed as a poet.
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It doesn't matter to me what genre of poem, I like them all. I tend to write dark, sad and love poetry the most though, doesn't mean I like it best. I enjoy anything with a flow and either a good meaning or one that I can feel the emotion.
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rhyming for me is not a must
as long as the poem has some deep meaning to it then i'll appreciate the meaning alot more.
I'mmore into dark poetry about death and pain then anything else.
love poems make me sick to the stomach -
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There's a line in Rilke - let me just find it...you may as well have the whole poem, it's not very long
Piano Practice
The summer hums. The afternoon fatigues;
she breathed her crisp white dress distractedly
and put into it that sharply etched etude
her impatience for a reality
that could come: tomorrow, this evening—,
that perhaps was there, was just kept hidden;
and at the window, tall and having everything,
she suddenly could feel the pampered park.
With that she broke off; gazed outside, locked
her hands together; wished for a long book—
and in a burst of anger shoved back
the jasmine scent. She found it sickened her.
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That's a good one; thanks for bringing it in. I just looked up the original and it rhymes, of course.
Übung am Klavier
Der Sommer summt. Der Nachmittag macht müde;
sie atmete verwirrt ihr frisches Kleid
und legte in die triftige Etüde
die Ungeduld nach einer Wirklichkeit,
die kommen konnte: morgen, heute abend -,
die vielleicht da war, die man nur verbarg;
und vor den Fenstern, hoch und alles habend,
empfand sie plötzlich den verwöhnten Park.
Da brach sie ab; schaute hinaus, verschränkte
die Hände; wünschte sich ein langes Buch
und schob auf einmal den Jasmingeruch
erzürnt zurück. Sie fand, daß er sie kränkte.
- Rainer Maria Rilke
This translation you posted is right on, imo
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Looking at translation has opened a whole new avenue of thought for me. I've always been impressed by Rexroth's translations, but not so much by his poetry. I'm wondering how a poet can do his best work on someone else's work, as it were.
German to English, it seems to me, strikes the first major difficulty at Schadenfreude, and Rilke is a great example of this. The words translate fairly easily, but the mind-set that gave them birth - how can that suffer translation?
Yet so many great works, of great poets, are offered only in translation - I'm thinking here of Neruda, in particular, for the variety of translations that stem from his supposedly simple words.
I couldn't learn Greek, in order to read Homer. But I can work on my German and French, and try to learn more Spanish, and make up my own mind about the poet's intention.
Yet the translator is rarely given credit for his work. This site is trying to insist on credit given to the source of art work, and I think that rule should apply to translations as well. Imo. -
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I agree that translators should be credited. The translations can make or break your interest in the poem; I have found this to be true of a volume of Lorca poems that I have that were translated by different people, with credit given at the beginning of each section. In some way, the poem becomes the work of the translator, not the poet, and lord knows, it's a lot more work than writing a poem.
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people need to edit/revise their work
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No one understands Schadenfreude - how can it possibly be translated? Damaged joy? People attempt to explain it but god help them if Rilke uses it in a poem you are translating. And you're right - what can we really know of his mindset unless we lived in his country, in his era? We are only reinventing him for ourselves, which has to be okay.
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I like anything fresh that isn't depressing, usually about life or society, but I suppose I should narrow down my categories a little, lol.
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I don't think it hurts to have eclectic tastes; de gustibus non est disputandem!
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I love humorous poetry, and when someone can pen something that flows well that is truly funny (and not offensive, ) I'm thrilled. I won't say no to a poem that gives a new perspective on life, something upbeat preferably, and something that can lift up the rest of my day. I usually go for rhyming (likely because much of humorous poetry has little in the way of poetic devices and may be better classified as "verse." )
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'Humour' is of course, a little subjective. Some of Byron's satire could be funny, unless you were the butt of his jokes.
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sylvia plath, deep, emotion ,crazy
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GemstoneGoddess17
Jun 19 1:21 AM
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