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Anyone read anything by him? Any opinions?
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Yes, a thousand years ago or so.
Opinions? Nothing negative. I'd have to go back and look to see if I can find something. -
Years ago. He wasn't enough of an impact on me to continue reading him. I usually try to read poems written by everyday people from 1820-1950 - a lot of work there that is overlooked by most people, and a lot of it (not all) is quite good.
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He's pretty good. And a pervert.
So, two pluses. -
I'm 17, presently covering him for my Leaving Cert.
I CAN'T STAND HIM! He's so unneccessarily vulgar - asking God to rape him, etc. and just an all round pervert/weirdo.
*Some* of the Holy Sonnets aren't too bad though... -
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Vulgarity was part of life then...
Life was shorter, and more brutal. Vulgarity is part of life; in the pre-victorian era, it was seen as part of the world. Why should it not be expressed? Our society's concepts of the profane and obscene are completely different from others- it is all subjective.
Seriously, compared to many, many people out there (especially artists) he wasn't so strange. At least he expressed himself through poetry, as opposed to covering or repressing ideas.
Whatever you think of his personality, his imagery and social comment are fantastic; not all of his images are 'nice', but they work. -
I guess you never read John Wilmot, huh?
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Carol Ann Duffy, too...
Incontinent, necrophiliac, dribbling, anorexic, psychotically violent Victorian, anyone? Charles Dickens would be rolling in his grave over Havisham.
I quite like Duffy ... partly because she does take everything that step further. -
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Amy Levy - to some degree.
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I hate her! WTF is with Valentine? An onion?!?!?! Why?!
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Because...
...Valentine's day is a fluffy 'lie' which hides the more complex issues that constitute love.
An onion makes a sound metaphor for love because (and these are just some ideas the kids I teach come up with):
-Both make you cry if cut/looked into;
-Both are useful and healthy;
-An onion is an everyday, homely food, like a longterm lover, 'part of the household';
-Both have layers to them;
-Both are organic and grow over time, rather than being 'fixed'.
In many ways, an onion is a stronger metaphor for adult love (as opposed to infatuation) than the chocolate boxes and roses more usually linked with valentines.
Furthermore, if you think about that old cliche, the 'heart' - that is basically offal! An onion is probably a more pleasant item to have and to hold in your hand- many people nowadays can't palate offal. Even our most accepted love-symbols aren't always 'nice'. -
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Writing poetry about chocolate, flowers and hearts is all well and good in SMALL doses and I understand the use of the onion, but there's just something about that comparison and that poem that does not appeal to me, it drives me MAD!
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I agree with you on your expression point.
I also agree that life is vulgar and a part of our world, however, I believe he is unnecessarily so... -
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How does one's vulgarity qualify to be considered "necessary"?
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Vulgarity does show the animosity of life...
However, asking God to rape oneself is a little OTT in my opinion... -
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If it was good enough for Mary...
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But "unnecessary"? That's rather a pathologically prudish approach to art, isn't it?
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Exactly my point- you can't stick rules on something that just 'is'
I'd say you need to be aware of the fundimantals:
-How babies are made;
-How men exert power and violence (and thus God might over man);
-What happens inside your body;
-What happens as you age;
-What happens after you die.
These things are all 'vulgar'- indeed society's desire to hide them is what made them seem vulgar to us. The concept of what is vulgar varies between countries. Some of my Asian relatives talk about bowel movements far more than people would in the UK, and wonder at the squeamishness.
One reason why Donne wrote about the body was the philosophy of the 'tripartite state' - where society reflected a body - including all parts and effluents. The King was the 'head' - guess what the peasants were. -
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the hands
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Organs
I was thinking of another organ
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After reading these notes makes a note not to read his stuff
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I am two fools, I know, for loving, and for saying so in whining poetry.
John Donne -
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Saucy pedantic wretch.
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P v N?
Aha, you've changed your name. I was confused for a minute; the post title hasn't got your updated ID.
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Nobody seemed to get the poetical device of the user name "Petroleum V Nasby" - the psuedonym of David Ross Locke - now, that guy was over-the-top.
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I haven't read Donne in ages but he wrote some great and powerful words.
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent."
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It would be silly to assume the writers that post in the dark columns are actually as 'dark' as they write. Hopefully they aren't really crying bloody tears and wailing on without hope.
So, assuming imagination is still part of a writer's toolkit, was Donne actually vulgar himself or was he just a convincing writer? -
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Personally, I hope they _are_ crying bloody tears, it'd serve them right. Donne, on the other hand, was searching for metaphors which would express the mystical union with God. Rape is actually an excellent metaphor for wanting to be taken and forced against one's will and desires.
Vulgar is derived from the latin for common people. Even as it is commonly used now, it refers to a lack of cultivation not to anything regarding sex. If anything, Donne was one of the most cultivated men of his age (though I'll grant his imagery might have been designed to speak across the classes).
I haven't read much Donne, and I wasn't particularly fond of what I read, but that's mainly due to my 20th century tastes, not to his failings.
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First, and foremost in my mind, is that he is quite dead. "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory that is God's."
Do you think they meant "poets" too! Nah!
Take what you like and leave the rest.
Just you don't turn out like him, except for your writing that is. -
i remember suffering him and and the others of that metaphysical gang during class and lectures. thought it was all a bit dull to be honest. but then it's a much changed society and his period is not really one that intrests me. certainly would not go out of my way to encourage others to read him.
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From what I know of Donne, he was a rather charismatic personality who often used the pulpit
in a theatrical way. I would think that your being in Ireland would give you a better chance at connecting with his work if you have any interest in religious antiquity whatsoever. His descriptions in his holy sonnets of Mary Magdalene's struggles, for instance, very much piqued my interest after having seen her depicted as a hairy wild woman wandering the seven hillsides - something I would have normally overlooked if I hadn't seen her depicted just in this way in sacred art here in Germany. I wouldn't take anyone else's suggestions on whether to read him or not. It will depend upon your individual tastes and interests if, when you find him, he speaks to you. -
Donne bought to the lyric poem a new realism & urgency with a psychological analysis & penetration that was ahead of its time. He was in many ways the father of the metaphysical poets. He was also the Dean of St Pauls for a while. Although he could be capricious cynical & satirical there is an intense beauty in his work.
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Have not read enough of John Donne but Death, Be Not Proud was such a brilliant poem by him that I fall back on when a loved one dies. The poem remains 'seminal' to me.
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All Donne !
He didn't write many poems really. If you don't count the epigrams,elegies,epithalamions & the long stuff like 'Of the Progresse of the Soule'. I picked a beautiful hardback edition of the Complete poems & selected prose, albeit second-hand, for £2. I like 'The Sunne Rising'. -
I have no clue who he is, or what he wrote. So I guess that says it all.
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For whom the bell tolls
John Donne is one of the most famous of all English poets. He was born in London in 1572 & matriculated from Hart Hall, Oxford then transferred to Trinity, Cambridge around 1587.
He did foreign service with the Earl of Essex & was on the Azores expedition.
His songs & sonnets were composed between 1590 - 1601.
He was married to Anne More In Dec 1601. His marriage was ratified a year later.
Between 1610 he composed the 'Divine poems' & travelled with Sir Robert Drury.
He became an ordained priest in on Jan 23rd 1614-15.
After being with Doncaster's Embassy to Germany he became the Dean of St Pauls Nov 19th 1621.
Escapes the London Plague, 1625.
He died in London on March 31st 1631
He was most famous for developing what would later become the metaphysical school of poetry. He is one of our most famous poets.
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He was the father of Metaphysical poetry
“The Metaphysical Poets are known for their ability to startle the reader and coax new perspective through paradoxical images, subtle argument, inventive syntax, and imagery from art, philosophy, and religion using extended metaphor known as a conceit.” (Donne, 1) http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/44718/jonh_donne_the_founder_of_metaphysical.html?cat=10
Anyone up for a thread on what metaphor is and I don't mean "Her hair was like a red, red rose." -
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Simile?
That's a simile isn't it? -
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well, there seems to be a lot of confusion about that here. People calling for metaphor - then you give them a poem that's one great big metaphor and they say, "I'm not seeing it." People demanding you not employ metaphor, by which they mean, don't say some weird thing about how her hair is like seaweed...
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spongy moss repels imprints
broken leaves collapse together
exposed roots shirk weight
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still a simile
Erm.....I don't want to sound pedantic but if you say it is 'like' or 'as' I think it is technically a simile.
Are you trying to make a distinction between 'analogy' & 'allegory' in a poem? -
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I would like some clarity on it all, yes.
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Hmmmm, I thought an analogy was when you made a comparison with something. An allegory is a story or fable to outline a principle. I think these words have complex shades of meaning. You can end up in conversations about post-modernism. That has become almost a meaningless word.
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Is that an analogy?
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like, yeah, man - what I'm talking about is how Brecht may have used no metaphor in his Seduction of an Angel but how the whole piece is a great big old metaphor for something.
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Isn't that 'meta narrative' ?
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I don't think so; you just should be able to read a poem on a level where you can say, "Oh, it's about a birthday party," and then possibly read it again and see that it is a metaphor for society and blah blah blah - am I wrong?
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Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
metaphor [ˈmetəfə] noun
a form of expression (not using `like' or `as')in which a quality or characteristic is given to a person or thing by using a name, image, adjective etc normally used of something else which has similar qualities etc
Example: `He's a tiger when he's angry' is an example of (a) metaphor. -
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Extended
How about.....the poem was an extended metaphor? -
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can it be an extended metaphor without employing any metaphor? For instance, Brecht didn't say anything like "He's an angel when you blah blah".
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How about, latent metaphor?
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Adding your reply:
Mmmichelle
May 21 5:12 PM 2007
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