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Dispelling the Myths of the Critical Critique

A few suggestions.



I actually wrote this for one of the groups I am in, but after some encouragement have decided to go ahead and post it as a column as well in case others might benefit from these suggestions.


Writing a critical critique is possibly one of the most important things we as writers here on AP have to offer one another. There seems to be a common misconception about the difference between what is a "critical" critique, and what is a "hurtful" critique. So let me begin by putting the stopper in these myths. A critical critique is something that is very honest and straightforward, but that offers suggestions and room for growth. A hurtful critique is a senseless bashing based on personal opinion which offers no helpful suggestions or encouragement. Fairly simple to remember? I think it is a pretty cut and dry, black and white spectrum, though many people are plagued by the grays.

When discussing critiques with people here on the boards I am continually surprised at how many times it has been said "I just can't leave critical critiques, I can't be mean to anyone." The majority of the time, I leave very critical critiques on people's work who in-turn applaud the comment, thank me graciously, and often later send me more links to their works in the hopes I will share my honest thoughts with them. We come here not only for praise, but to grow. But we cannot begin to do so without a guiding hand.

 

There are many wonderful columns here on AP that assist both in how best to critique a work as well as how best to receive a critique on your own work. Realize there is no right or wrong answer. A critique is an opinion, it is your interpretation of how the piece presented is, and what it could be.

 

In this I will not be stating the more technical areas of critiquing a work, though I may do so at a later date. (I do encourage anyone who would like to do this or share links to any they themselves use to do so.) Instead, this will simply be a loose outline and explanation of why this tactic works for me.

 



Giving A Critique

 


When leaving a comment for someone, especially a critical one, it is important to point out both the positive and negative of the work. I realize to many this seems like a very common sense concept, but it is amazing how few really do it. They usually point out only the things they enjoyed about the piece, and completely overlook it's flaws, or only point out it's flaws and yet say they like the poem without ever really saying what did work.

 


Making It Personal

 


I like to begin with the subject matter of the piece. Though this might not always be a comfortable area, especially if you do not understand the content of the poem. Do not be afraid to ask the poet for their interpretation of their write. Many are often flattered you care enough to ask and wish to understand. All poetry really is interpretive though, so do not be afraid to say what you personally got out of it. Relate with the writer, whether it is to agree or disagree with the topic, discuss your personal experiences. In presenting this poem to you, they are sharing a very private piece of themselves, do they not deserve the same in return? We as poets are more exposed than any other artist, because not only are we expressing our souls, but we are doing so in blunt language. Never forget that. It is a privilege to read one anothers work whether we particularly enjoy their style and mannerisms or not.  You will be amazed how much finding a common ground with the writer can effect the way they perceive your critique.

 


Attacking the Demons

 


Once you have established a friendly basis, and put the person at ease and on a common ground with you, you are free to address the areas of the poem which are problematic.

 

In doing so there is a very simple method to assure this is taken well. Play upon their obvious strengths to help them overcome their weaknesses. If you note that a writer is very articulate and precise, but feel their piece is a bit cliche you approach the subject with the positive aspect of their gifts. It is much easier to swallow,

 

"You have a very articulate mannerism when describing your feelings in this piece, though I would have liked to of seen more of an original approach."

 

than it is to absorb,

 

"This piece was very typical and cliche of love poems."

Always have faith in the writer and their abilities. Because it is in all of us, that possibility to be greater. It needs only be shown to us in a way so that we can understand how to use it.

 

Another example, just to stress how important this is when critiquing someone..

 

It is much easier to accept,

 

"You have a very interesting presentation in this work, that assisted in impacting the reader with the overall feel of the piece. Though I felt not spelling out all of your words disrupted the environment you created."

than

"U is not a word."

 


Offering Suggestions

 


When presenting someone with alternative methods and usage it is important to do so non-threateningly. How to do this? Be humble. This is not to be mistaken for giving praise where none is due. But again, play to their strengths to overcome their weaknesses. If you recommend a new scheme for their poem, present it with the faith that they have the ability to do this without your guidance. Many can, but have not really ever had it put to them in a way so that they could really look at it and why it wasn't working. Your examples help people to see that. By seeing where yours does flow, compared to theirs which does not they can understand which parts are disruptive and then decide for themselves how best to approach the situation.

 


Closing on a Positive Note

 


Just as it is important to begin on a common ground to insure the writer does not begin reviewing your critique with a defensive mind, it is important to leave them with reassurance.

 

Your closing lines more than anything else are what will stick with them. Recap and reiterate the things you like about their style and their work, while still reminding them that you believe in their abilities. Because you should.

 

No matter how little someone appears to have put into a piece you have no way personally to truly know. Poems are like pain and cannot be measured to someone else's. Though you personally may not be able to relate, or to understand why someone would post something in the way that they have does not mean for that writer it is not a strong effort that could be improved upon with the right encouragement.

 



Now that I have talked your ears off, or eyes rather, with my mumbo jumbo I guess I will head off. Again, feel free to add your own findings and techniques, I have no doubt they will be beneficial to all.

 


always,
jamie

 

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1 - 86 of 86

  • Dolphin Shaktiheart
    October 4, 2006
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    I also find that applause goes a long way when critiquing a piece.

  • Dolphin Shaktiheart
    October 4, 2006
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    I see the Cosmic One looking at me when she mentions "Public Self Pleasuring" I look over to my dear one and her, followed by all sorts of other yummy things.

    It is also good to give the interpretation of the overall theme of ones work and offer ways for the piece to flourish and grow, and yes, do gently point out spelling and grammatical errors.

  • Sonja
    October 1, 2006
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    I absolutely agree with you. Reader could be kind with comments but at the same time must know how to point at some mistake in the poem. I always apprechiate honest comments. It is not good to get critiqe personal and it is not good to send it the same way. We are all here to learn and to build our knowledge. We are not all the same but we all have our feelings. Some know how to express them better the others has a problem with words and pictures but they are still poets. They need a little bit of help to grow up as poets. This is one of the best column I found on this site. Bravo!
    ~Sonja~

  • Lady Altheia Greeters member
    September 30, 2006
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    I have never gotten a critical critique. I get what people think are critical critiues but there is too much criticism in their critique. Plus I have yet to get one with helpful suggestions. That's why I never ask for critical critiques.

  • azure85 gold member
    September 30, 2006
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    Very nice column, and it gives helpful advice for those of us who do critique poems. I am always grateful when someone gives me a suggestion that will improve my poetry, I am here to learn as well as to write. I try to leave a positive response, and if I think a suggestion should be made, I will then add it.

  • Entwining Beauty silver member
    September 30, 2006
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    Finaly I have meet someone on ap that can help improve my own work as I can and whiling to do my best to help other people in doing so. They above i have just read is true I love to get honest comments but just don't seem to get them because they are either afraid to or just don't crit properly i hate it when i get beautiful or i loved it keep up the great pen, keep the pen flowing i would love to know why it was great or why it wasn't on reading this I would love to help by giving my honest opinion in helping others

  • PsychoDreamer
    July 16, 2006
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    This is a great article, although not being a very active poet writer I admit I didnt finish it. I especially liked the fact that you pointed out that blunt, constructive critiques are better than just regular blunt "hey this wasnt very good!" ones. Cheers!
  • dustookie2
    July 8, 2006
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    learn from it

    Personally i believe all columns have value and we should read them through take the points on board mull it over and learn which is what it is all about. Much has been said in the comments here already but whichever way you go as individuals we are still always learning with the hope of improving. I applaud your work in this column appreciate it.
  • verses on flesh
    June 13, 2006
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    heeheehee <33

  • cosmicrose
    June 13, 2006
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    There is a lot of attentiveness to detail in your column which shows a good deal of caring went into it's creation. What more could anyone ask for? However... who can then avoid reading all the comments afterward? DAMN... as if I had time for all that? LOL Now that I know how ole David feels... I simply MUST spend some time reading his offerings... just to make sure he has absolutely flawless works... all. I'm just a poet wannabe... cause I'm terrible with grammar as you can see. Then again... I'm not trying to be perfect because there is just too much responsibility in all that. I'll leave that up to Mr. Robertson. I have to go wash my hands after being witness to such public self pleasuring. What a master of mental masturbation that guy is!!!! Oh... sorry... I almost forgot why I was here. Your column is great but the rhyme is off a bit... hahaha

  • Barbara gold member
    June 5, 2006
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    Well done column, and one that a lot of people would do well to read and follow. I found the font hard to read because it was small, although copying it into a word file worked fine. I used to have a teacher would would say: "As soon as someone says 'but', they've stopped listening." I try to avoid using the word 'but' in critiques....... but sometimes it's hard
    Edited on Jun 05, 7:23 because 'I can't spell'.

  • Sai Babas Lotus
    June 5, 2006
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    Dear Jamie,

    Thank you for writing this column and sharing your views. I cannot agree enough with you that we are all here to share or offer one another feedback on poetry we and others write. If one just wants to write without receiving any feedback, I think they could specify the same in the comments box. However, majority of us poets here wish to learn a thing or two and grow as writers. I speak for myself when I say this that I do write in various forms(form poetry) and sometimes in free verse, and, I am thrilled when I receive good feedback on what I write. When I say good feedback, it does mean - positive and negative points, both. Positive ones encourage me to write more and try out various styles of writing, and, negative really reveal where I could do better. I have received my share of "You are blocked from commenting by this user" and often time it is because they did not appreciate a feedback in which I tried to only help them write better. One of the best poets on this site I came across is the former Dean of AllPoetry, Haikumonk. He was so impressed with my feedback on his haiku that one day he told me that I would make a great journalist/professional critique for a magazine and I should seriously think about it I believe that one should learn to accept the critique in a positive way. Be like the swan that stays in water yet doesn't get its feathers soaked or be like the rose that grows in mud but still is a rose. What I am trying to say is: Many poets quit writing because of someone's bad feedback on their poems. Now the feedback wasn't bad, they weren't able to handle it. It only says things like comments on rhyme scheme, alliteration, meter, and such things(poetic devices)...what I call the basic skeletal system of writing. One needs to have a solid foundation first and then march out with words. I feel no shame in reading the poems of those better than me. How else will I learn ? They have set a certain standard of writing and its like a benchmark for me. It gives me an idea of what is good poetry. Generally, all such poets are very helpful and kind. They are willing to share their knowledge. We must learn from them is what I sincerely feel and first invite them to critique the poem we write through an IM, and, then post it on AP. Of late, I have met some writers/poets who are accepting my critiques favourably and infact IM me a lot of poems to write a review on. This shows that they do accept critiques in a good taste. Hurtful critiques do no one any good and must be avoided at all costs. I have received a few of them but just let them pass like an angry dust storm without giving too much importance to the reviewer . I like one point you made: that of relating one's personal experience with the author of the poem being reviewed. That is an excellent one and it works like a magic charm. Quite often it helps because the author feels that the reader has stepped back in a moment where he was in the same situation as the author or where he can resonate very well with what is being said. I also agree that each of us is blessed with immense abilities as a writer and only need a guiding hand to show us the right way to tap into it. I would suggest one thing which always helps :- Do read up as many poems as you can on a certain form if you are into writing form poetry, be it sonnet, haiku, rictameter, triolet, lira, anything for that matter...read up as many as you can from well established poets. Ask around whose work is good, there are names you will get...there are few who are masters at the form they write. Example: myron for haiku, MaryK for sonnets, masterblaster for Egyptian mythology poems, etc. Read up as much as you can on their poetry and then try writing one of your own. Invite them to read your work. Read up classical poets on oldpoetry.com Be kind and genuine when you give a review. What goes around, comes around tenfold. Always remember that is what I will tell everyone. There are various teachers on AP of different forms of poetry. Look into their work. They will help, I'm sure.

    This is so well penned and I thank you for the opportunity for me to be able to share a few things too.

    Best wishes,
    Charishma

  • cherche -d -ame gold member
    June 5, 2006
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    P.S I did mean to add that we all should grow a little tougher hides and not whine and cry about every comment that does not meet all of our expectations....it is as in movies....the characters and the audience have different styles and tastes and we can not please everyone. As long as we can feel that we gave it our best shot and laid it out there , we can ourselves* for even having the courage to do so....and it does take courage to lay our work out to the masses , so all of you who write ( good or bad) be proud....you have gone one step beyond many
    z
    reenie

  • cherche -d -ame gold member
    June 5, 2006
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    thank you for taking the time and addressing an issue that has created problems on this site ever since I have been a member ( and I belive that is well over three years now))Personally I feel that something gets lost in the language, as there can not be such a thing as a critical critique that has a shred of positive in it.Critical simply means disapproving ( even if we make it smell like a rose) It should be a constructive critique. It is by those that we learn and it is also those that leave room to pull out what we liked as a reader and offer suggestion as to how maybe improve it. I have said this hundreds of times. For example , if my husband tells me "I like your hair today , but that dress makes you look fat.....maybe if you would wear the blue one". He has lost me after The fat comment If we say that a football team played lousy ( that is all they hear) There ears shut down when we praise the few good plays they did make. So as usual....the bottom line of this is is the word critical not the word critique critical has a very negative ring to it , to where critique leaves room for praise and suggestions and maybe how to improve a write. A writer is much more perceptive to something like that.....so once again...I am suggesting to do away with the word critical, as it does tear down the person ( regardless of what follows) If I am not mistaken this site does not even use the word critical when it comes to comments. A grat write desrves a wonderful critique, one that is not so great still does not allow us to be critical, it merely gives us a chance to help the writer along and learn without any feelings being hurt. Mybe a few foreign language dictionaries ought to be used to really define the word critical. It means disapproving , to where critique incorporates the good and the bad. So basically I am agreeing with all that you said........and let's see if we can not drop the word crititical* from this sitelltogether....lets mix the good and the bad and end up with something that does not irritate the writer , but lets him/her keep his dignity and hopefully take to heart and learn something from what we said............I say " Let's dump the Simons form American Idol" he gets paid millions to be nassty and offensive to offend and bring peole to tears.
    On a final note , please ignore any typos as I wrote this in sort of a hurry and my editor is still sleeping
    respectfully,
    reenie
  • verses on flesh
    June 5, 2006
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    -snorts- Thanks, David, for the typo correction.

    jamie

  • dp robertson
    June 5, 2006
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    This could have a little more credence if the person who penned it could spell-Dispelling. The “disspelling” that you are using sounds like it comes from the Mississippi Delta saying something like “Dis spelling test result is crap!”

    Now being one who has been, what I believe, unfairly banned because of posting harsh critiques, I am a great believer that some pieces of poetry on this site almost defy you to find anything positive about them. Some have such a litany of mistakes that include, bad grammar, nonsensical patterns, plonky rhymes, poxy rhythm, limited vocabulary, clichés and display a lack of imagination where a person must bore themselves shitless everyday with their own bland company. The very thought of putting an adjective before a noun is as confounding as alien technology to some writers. Similes and metaphors, building of atmosphere, lacing nuance throughout are an anathema when a hallmark cliché beckons. I believe some writers need to be told that what they are highlighting and begging a response on is fucking awful and an insult to one’s intelligence and an assault on one’s senses. Yet there we are saddled with the responsibility to somehow find positive points about some horrible dirge that the dog wouldn’t even chew because it stunk so much.

    However in the spirit of this piece lets put together a pool of feel good comments on truly poxy pieces.

    “I love how you ended.”
    “The title of this piece was really something.”
    “I marvel at the mind that put this together.”
    “Gosh, 400 verses about the Maid of Windermere. That would have taken you a long time. (and not say what you really want to say such as – I should know as it took me two years to read for I collapsed into a coma half way through and have only just been recently revived!)
    “I love how you rhymed blue and you- that was really something, along with bled and red, in your piece entitled “Rainbow of Death”. Possibly look at the rhyming of purple and cocksucker, magenta and shit for brains as these appear not to rhyme as well as the rest of your brave attempt at dispelling (please note – traditional spelling used here) what could only be bad memories of your ex-boyfriend.”
    “Who would have thought of using the season of Spring as a metaphor- what a wonderfully simple idea of using blooms to depict life. What can I say that hasn’t been said before…

    See how hard it is? I believe we should be able to tick a box and if there are enough votes to allow the mob to turn on a piece and then kick it to death. That would make people learn to write a little quicker.

    But seriously, people as a general rule on this site are way too thin skinned and way to precious when it comes to criticism. Quite frankly anyone can say anything they like for or against my poetry. No one in the world writes like me, I love it and the brain it comes from. If you like it, great, enjoy, its my gift to you- if you don’t like it, bag by all means- if the comment is at least a little bit witty, I don’t care what you say.

    People, grow up and know that good writers don’t give a shit what you say. That you have to treat pieces from really poxy writers with reverence- somehow a good kicking seems a lot more honest don’t you think?

    David

    Edited on Jun 05 because ''.

  • Thundercat
    June 4, 2006
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    I think this column explores a very important topic to us poets. Sometimes you get/give comments which people don't appreciate, and this column explains why this occurrs. I think you have done a very good job of making some helpful suggestions of how to overcome anxiety when posting a critical comment. I found that I was already doing some of the things you said, but I did find a lot of room to expand my knowledge. Thanks on posting this column, and I hope we can all learn how to be more supportive (in every way) poets.

    Thundercat
  • midnight2000
    June 4, 2006
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    I agree with you a lot. I have had an experience where a writer (From a different group) totally bashed me for my lack of grammar (From wanting to be a short-story writer). That hurt me. After that, I did get two comments about my "Wordiness" in my writing. One of them was at my last job, which I ended up crying.

    However, with poetry it is different. I still do get the Grammar-Police, but fortunately it's with one or two lines.

    And another thing that I should mention is that there is a difference between Constructive Criticism and Criticism.

    Constructive Criticism tells me more about how to fix my problems or to improve upon my poetry. I have been getting that in this group.

    Then there are those people that says that someone's poetry is "Okay," without giving an explanation why it is. I have not been getting those.
  • zara
    June 4, 2006
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    This is a well-written and useful column; thank you for offering it to the masses.

    Now, please, fix the misspelling in the title!


  • Stuart Higginson
    June 4, 2006
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    Ah, and I too inadvertently forgot to say something ... I was going to give you the name of the AP poet who puts her work on audio!!!! It's "Veronica Cross" I do think sometimes that we're distracted and forced to hit the "Submit Comment" button by unseen forces

  • Stuart Higginson
    June 4, 2006
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    Reply for DogFish;

    Hi Thanks for your comments regarding the response I gave to this piece. I am pleased to hear that I'm not the only one who is aware that poetry is designed to be read aloud, not only to one's own mind I do believe if people read their own work aloud, as well as the works of others, then they would be far more able to undertake their own editing, revisions, proof-reading and such, and shape their work better. Not just on AP, but on any writing site or off-line.

    There is a writer I would definitely recommend you give some reading time to (besides Verses On Flesh of course ), as she is very talented. She also features links to an audio site, where audio versions of her poetry can be heard, as she recites and posts them there. I thought I'd let you know, since you said you'd like to hear AP poets' work aurally too

    I appreciate your comments re: my own feedback on this post. In responding to me though, you inadvertently seem to have neglected to comment on this actual article itself, so you might want to revisit and leave your feedback for Jamie!!

    Many thanks again.
    Best wishes,
    Stuart
  • ngane
    June 4, 2006
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    thank you this information is very usefull especially to some of us who still don't know how to crituque and have very limited english vocabulary to do so. Please don't stop giving more notes, it's like an interesting lecture. thank you again. ngane

  • DogFish silver member
    June 4, 2006
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    In reply to stuart higginson:Exellent thoughts and counsel on meter...I , also, enjoy reading the work on the site outloud.I'd love to hear many works by their authors:I'm sure many poems would spring surprisingly to life .With authors from India to South Carolina I'm sure many of the accents would be sheer delight.
    Edited on Jun 04, 7:23 p.m. because ''.

  • Musical Anomaly
    June 4, 2006
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    The great shame about this column is that the people who probably need to read it the most are those who probably won't.
    Yeah, like Bob the Elder I had to highlight the black on green bits, and
    "though I would have liked to of seen more of an original approach"- shouldn't that read "would have liked to see" or "would have liked to have seen"?
    Anyhow, this deserves its syndication. Keep writing and critiquing

  • Rin
    June 4, 2006
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    good plan

    im not big on the "wow this sucks but i wont actually tell you why" comments either

    i definately enjoy productive criticism, i just want to know how i can do BETTER not how terrible i am, i hope lots of people read this!

    --rin

  • Nocturne
    June 4, 2006
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    Heheh. Yeah, wordy language and euphamisms do get a better reaction than blunt truth. That's why critiquing is so painfully time consuming and page consuming.

  • BlackWidow43 silver member
    June 4, 2006
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    this was a great piece. im bookmarking it. thanks for the tips.

  • Andu
    June 4, 2006
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    Bookmarked :)

    This is a brilliant piece, thanks for sharing it. It's so much better in my opinion that someone really tells me what's wrong with my poetry that just telling me that it's good.. after all, I know it's not really that good and could do with great improvement! One of the reasons I joined AP is to learn, and if poeple aren't being honest, I'm not really going to learn anything!
    Sometimes, it's a bit of a double edged sword because some people are just looking for praise, so a good, well intended critique can be harshly misunderstood as trashing.
    I like that you went into the diplomatic ways of critiquing here, they can be a very helpful guide, thank you!

  • MissCassie
    June 4, 2006
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    Wow I thought that this was very well done. It wasn't too long which is good because when columns are too long I fin di trather irritating. One thing I think could be improved upon was when you gave examples of good ways to critique and then a bad way to do it, basically, the good ways, sound too smart. o.o Nice column though. You definately deserve all of these applauds!
    Cassie

  • sidewinder silver member
    June 4, 2006
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    The problem is that AP is a place to showcase material. If you want critique go to the sister site sharepoety. In the second place... most poetry is at best objective. What I mean by that.... a person's poetry will not be to the liking of everyone. And many who do critique get's stuck on structure, spelling and grammer. While I welcome peoples feedback. Sometimes my poetry borders on abstractness or I use conversation...as if I'm talking to someone...which is mistaken for prose. I don't write prose. I write freeverse. So when I'm asked to explain some peices I allow people to take what they want from the piece that I write. Altho with many pieces I can tell them where I was when I wrote the piece....my frame of mind. Or I also use collaborations... and in that I edit the piece... so sometimes within the pieces there are contrasts within it. So it's difficult to explain those or difficult to take out the contrasts without ruining the main objective of the piece.
    What some don't understand is their suggestions.. if applied.. will change the context of what I have written.
    So it's a give and take situation.
    Edited on Jun 04, 2:27 p.m. because ''.

  • NoUseForAName
    June 4, 2006
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    Perhaps there should be an article written on how to accept a critique as well. I've found, no matter how padded a critique is, more often than not, the person receiving doesn't want to hear it- even when the review is invited.

    A critique is not a personal attack- it is an attack (be it positive or negative) on the writing.

    Because of the lack of ability to accept a critique, I find I don't leave very many on this site. There are a handful of people that I read who want the critiques. I tend to give them to those people and no-one else.

    We all get frustrated with people who leaves comments about the background- self included. However, it is much more frustrating to get attacked for leaving a critique.

  • Ostara
    June 4, 2006
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    Well, Jamie, I guess you just spelled out every teeny tiny thought I've had about AP for the last couple of months.
    I joined the party to be able to learn, but indeed, you usually get: 'oh my god, this as such a beautiful/sad/blahblah write! Keep up the good work!' It totally drove me crazy, with the result I quit posting anything at all on this site. My poems are not perfect, and even though I might not change the ones that are finished (to me), I still prefer to get some CRITIQUE to be aware of when writing another one.
    I myself usually prefer to give an indepth interpretation of what I see in the poem, and sometimes giving some advice as well, though I'm not too keen on doing so since I'm not a native speaker.

    But, all said and done, I hope A LOT of ppl on AP will read this column and understand what you're talking about

    Ostara

  • grannyeri gold member
    June 4, 2006
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    Think this offers much to first time commentors and also experienced poets on this site. For some it is hard to say things that reflect some of the obvious mistakes in one's poems, and for some they have a hard time stating the obvious mistakes in kind terms. This offers as medium for both sides. Well written.

  • Gregor Samsa
    June 4, 2006
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    Well done. I know some writers who have been having difficulty recently with the aggressive nature of critiques received. I hope this will contribute to improving. Its rather a counsel of perfection, but we can all help eachother by saying what we want to say in a way that helps rather than hurts.

  • Bob the Elder
    June 4, 2006
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    had to highlight to read where the text crossed onto the green on the right... black/darkgreen+black=unreadable, but all the same very well written and thoughful column.
  • verses on flesh
    June 4, 2006
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    Thank you, Kelsey, for your encouraging words. I agree with you about critiques on certain pieces. I normally click for critical critique unless it is something really personal to me, in which case I also often leave a note requestion only comment on the subject and not the piece.

    jamie
  • verses on flesh
    June 4, 2006
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    Thank you, Earth. I too tend to be very blunt, and am often accused of being distastefully so. Which is why I make myself so consious of the things that I say here. Because it is so easy for something not meant to be discouraging to completely reshape how a person feels about their gifts and their desire to write and share it. So much of a critique lays in how it is being said rather than what is said. Especially if it is someone we do not know personally, and thus doesn't realize it is just how we phrase things and that we don't mean offense in saying it.

    I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.

    jamie
  • verses on flesh
    June 4, 2006
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    I'm glad to see that you feel a little bit differently now, R S. I think it is important for everyone to understand there is no real "expert" per say of poetry. In writing or critiquing. It is an always evolving atmosphere and there are many new styles and concepts being created constantly.

    Though there may be many who study poetry and make it their lifes work, but the truth is no matter how technical one can be, a critique is still simply opinion.

    There are several amazing writers here who I feel put my work to shame, and it is very hard for me to critique because of my own inferiority complex. But I have to often remind myself of those who have said to me they did not feel as if they were up to scale to be able to truly critique my work, and how I was saddened that they felt this intimidation.

    Even the most accomplished of writers has room for improvement, and it will inevitably be a fan who shows it to them.

    Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me. I greatly appreciate it.

    jamie

  • Silence of Finality
    June 4, 2006
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    I agree with Stuart in regards to his entire "point" section. It does need to be revamped. For those of us who are fairly new and have few points, when we fature a poem and get three word comments it can be disheartening sometimes. Thank you for writing this column.
  • verses on flesh
    June 4, 2006
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    Hi Aleksi. Not having written long enough to really critique someone is a common misconception. It doesn't really matter how long you have written or not, you know what you like and what you don't. And that is all it really is in the end.

    A little rule I live by personally when giving a full and critical critique is, if I do not have an example, or recommendation on how to correct something to make improve it, I don't mention it. I let the person who can guide them in that area suggest it. You may find that alone can take a lot of pressure off of your shoulders.


    jamie

  • Cheeky paper
    June 4, 2006
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    Dear Sweet Jamie.

    By this colunm caught me think a lot now, I'm truly agreed with you by this point and this makes me look back at myself, I know I'm not one of who is good at writing a critical critique as I always write a comment only how I like or what I like in the poem and never wrote there what i dont like, but I'm sure I will try to do that next time as your suggestions as above.

    Yes , we aren't only want to know how cool our poems are or how much the reader like on our poems but we also want to know that where should we edit or re-write again on the poem and the critical critique is what helps and guides us to know and to next write the more better than before..

    Anyway , this is one of the good column I've ever readed before. Good to have a chance to read this , Jamie .. This is really importance & helpful for us AP poets

    Papergirl
    Edited on Jun 04, 10:33 because ''.

  • Stuart Higginson
    June 4, 2006
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    Hi Jamie

    This is a good piece, which will help many. I agree with many of the principles to "good critiquing" which you have laid-down in this article.

    There is a tendency for ego to fester in the writing world, yet humility is important, as you've expressed. People can deliver constructive, useful, helpful and fair critique to a piece, which aims either to help or interest the recipient. Too often though, people see things written by others as personal attacks. Likely not only because of ego, but because the internet doesn't convey the emotion in the words, only the words themselves in their physical appearance. Hence the wording must be carefully chosen and equally discerningly read/considered.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    FLOW My biggest grievance (I think!! Don't quote me on it though!)

    If there is something that time after time fails to be considered correctly, and which flaws a person's critique, it's likely to be references made to "flow". Metre/rhyme-matching/pace/tone/accent etc etc all are points of consideration that contribute to what many readers call the flow of a piece.

    However, considering it's a safe bet that most people only tend to read a piece of poetry once (and only again if they really like it, or needed to double-check something that caught their eye and confused them). Considering it's a known fact that poetry should be read at least twice in one sitting when critiquing, to determine the reading-scheme, style and structure, and of course "flow", then to read and enjoy the poem etc for its subject matter, it's no wonder that many people make slip-ups in their references to "flow", and I find this quite disconcerting. I always find myself pointing out to people (often teens) the more intricate matters of "flow"; that it's not just "whether the poem reads smoothly". For instance, when writing, I tend to speak/read the poem; both going over the words in my mind and then by reading the poem aloud (reading poetry aloud is also the suggested way of reading it in order to understand it better). Then come the edits I give each piece before actually posting it. Therefore, my poetry is heard/read/spoken "in the mind" and "by the mouth, aloud," before even being posted; and my poetry is spoken in English. People who read poetry should also note that how it sounds can be influenced by accent, which influences how the words sound, or how lines are written etc. Hence we should be very mindful about commenting on "flow", especially when the person receiving the critique could "take the criticism into account and revise their work because of it". I think you could write a good article on such a matter.
    ------------------------------------------------

    POINTS:

    I think if the "points system" was sorted out, so that points are awarded in tiers - ie "0/1pts for comment, 2-4 points for feedback of longer length, and X-XX points thereafter for an in-depth critique - then perhaps people would be encouraged to provide more in-depth responses to the work they're reading.

    I also think that there should be a "points release" function for the author of any piece which gets placed in the Featured Box etc, which would present the author with a "YES/NO?" option for RELEASING points to each individual member who critiques their work in the Featured Area. That way, the author would be in control of who is awarded their points, so the ongoing situation of people pointing and clicking on featured pieces and then leaving without commenting or only leaving "YEH GR8 WRITE" will eventually be reduced; simply because these people would not receive the author's promo-points. Then, for instance, a piece the author promotes (under current system) for 14 points per click, would (in the above system) not pay-out those points on everyone who clicks, but on those who leave the critiques that deserve them; author being able to adjust the level of points offered depending on the type of critique too, perhaps; ie comment,longer response,constructive critique.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    I agreed with about 99.9% of this article, and it is well written, though there was one section that I felt could be given further attention, as the subject-matter discussed was "situational", and I felt it needed to reflect that more.

    RE: "It is much easier to accept,

    "You have a very interesting presentation in this work, that assisted in impacting the reader with the overall feel of the piece. Though I felt not spelling out all of your words disrupted the environment you created."

    than

    "U is not a word."


    In reference to the above, I think you just need to consider re-phrasing/presenting this in a different way. You and I have encountered this situation numerous times.

    While to the older/more experienced or literate members/writers, the former statement would indeed be the better response ...... sometimes with younger members and/or those who struggle with writing and reading (but are here because they do enjoy it and want to do it/improve etc.,) then the second statement/means of expression (in "Plain English") would perhaps be more to their liking. Some people wouldn't want a wordy response that they need to unravel in their minds to understand what's being said; they'd prefer it direct, to the point and clear. However, being direct does not mean the person has to be unpleasant. A lot of the time it comes down to two things: how the point the critic makes is written, and how it is taken by the recipient.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Anyway, this is a solid article, and will be very helpful to many

    Best wishes
    Stuart

    Edited on Jun 04, 9:15 because ''.

  • Psycho Jess
    June 4, 2006
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    Really Helpful!

    Hey. Thanks for this column. You've put some really useful and helpful points in here which I shall definatly try to remeber for next time I comment on a poem because I think proper, thought out critiques can really benifit someone. . I found this really easy to follow and simple to understand but it still covered alot of important stuff. So well done, and thanks.
    JESSxxx

  • CarolDesjarlais silver member
    June 4, 2006
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    Well done. I struggle with constructive criticisms. Whether I am nto coming across as I meant to, or whether they simply do not want it, I have not had favorable reactions, typically. I have taken to sending them a quick not through im, so all the world does not see.

    I, in no way, profess to be a poet of any consequence, but what I do nto see in my own, I may see in anothers. When I come to a poem that i think is wonderful, but feel there is something that needs tweaking, I resort to the quiet whisper of im.

    Perhaps AP needs to really stress this more. Many eyes can only makes a poet more aware and a better writer when others express constructive suggestions, from their viewpoint, of our work. I love it when someone expresses what a poem may make them feel, sense, what thoughts springboard from a poem I have written.

    I appreciate it when someone catchs something I have missed, no matter how many times I have proofed it. My eyes see only what my heart meant to say.

    Thank you, again for this. I shall tread lightly until people are more receptive. As for me and mine, please, feel free to give me all the suggestions you can.

  • blind alley
    June 4, 2006
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    I definitely agree with you on this. Where critiques are needed, all I get is "Oh, thats good!" or something like that. I hope that poets will use these methods for critiquing. I'll definitely keep your helpful hints on being humble in mind. Anyhow, take care and keep writing...
    ~^~Tiya~^~

  • DancingRed
    June 4, 2006
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    Wow. This is great. I've often wondered how on earth to leave good comments, that point out what I like about something as well as things that could have been changed.
    I loved how you talked about the poet behind the poem.
    "Always have faith in the writer and their abilities. Because it is in all of us, that possibility to be greater" - will have to remember this.
    I'm glad you posted this for everyone to read!

    DancingRed.

  • LadyUnique silver member
    June 4, 2006
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    admirable column you've taken the time to write and share. your language is very clear and easy to understand. i would appreciate more critical critiques of my work. to hear that someone enjoyed my poem is nice but it's the honest, helpful critiques i crave.

  • waydownuponjoy gold member
    June 4, 2006
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    I, for one, appreciate that you took the time to share this topic and to address it with good explanation. There will always be differences of opinions and yet I would be grateful to hear anything at all about anything I posted. I note that "blank number" of people have viewed it and yet ... not one comment and that stimulates me to wonder why? Also I'd like to see you write a follow up to this on how to comment on a comment without letting your anger at disappointment show when the initial comment was "given in good faith" and not meant to offend! joy

  • Redstormy gold member
    June 4, 2006
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    I never request critical critique here because... as you said

    "A critical critique is something that is very honest and straightforward, but that offers suggestions and room for growth. A hurtful critique is a senseless bashing based on personal opinion which offers no helpful suggestions or encouragement. Fairly simple to remember?"

    Most of the critical critiques are of the second type.

    They may question a line or a phrase, and question
    it with no suggestions. I have a mentor who is a publisher
    who critiques my work. I post here first and then I revise
    it if need be. Sometimes he doesn't get back to me right away.

    I don't mind if someone sends me a PM and corrects my spelling,
    grammer or punctuation. But do it via PM. I have one friend
    in particular who does that all the time, and I appreciate him.

    I use the site as a place to work on my poetry. Also I believe
    unless you're familar with the particular style of the writer,
    you really should keep your mouth shut.

    I'm a narrative writer, and often someone comes along
    and criticizing my work who writes in abstract metaphors.
    They have no real understanding of my style, and I certainly
    have no understanding of theirs.

    But nothing makes me angrier than if someone comes along and criticizes my work, when I have not requested it. I don't
    believe in open critique. Because it colors the view of other readers. So I want my critique done by someone I know and respect, who I can trust and in private.

    Nothing is more irratating than some anal poet who comes along
    and critiques your work, then if you don't agree they get angry
    and insult you. Which has been my experiance more than not.

    Look at the poem before you click on it, if it doesn't say critical, then by all means keep your oppinion to yourself,
    that should be easy enough to understand right?

    I don't mean to sound angry but recently I had to deal with
    this and the critiquer insulting me and my choice because I didn't agree.

    Any critique is only an oppinion, I don't believe in absolutes, unless it's about forms such as Sonnets or Haikus
    and of course Brautigan would look kind of silly if he wrote
    like Robert Frost or Emily Dickenson wouldn't he?

  • ILTL4eva7
    June 4, 2006
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    btw... I just wanted to let you know that you were my 1000th comment! Yay! haha, okay, I'm good now.

  • ScarletO
    June 4, 2006
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    I am always personal in my comments and try to be encouraging. I do comment on typos but in an IM not on the comment area. I am not a great critiquer I know, but I do try to comprehend what others are trying to tell.

    I do believe that when my poems have been critiqued ,it was done in a gracious comment. Not all do that graciously and it did hurt to hear how harsh they could be. But it only takes one to bash your poem to make you want to bash back, not that I would ever do such a thing, but it did not leave a good feeling.

    I feel good job is not quite enough either. I have posted in the feature column and 3 words were given, for they just wanted the points. Perhaps I should have been happy they even commented at all, huh?

    I feel your piece of work here is very beneficial and can aid many if they choose to read your piece. It should be posted for a while giving many more a chance to read.

  • DragonessTawnya
    June 3, 2006
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    Great suggestions

    Thank you for the pointers. I left what I thought was a kind critical critique once. Then it got flamed. It wasn't even the writer of the poem who flamed me, either. Well, I decided never to critique anything again. I apparently hurt the writer of the poem, even though THEY never said anything. I am not here to hurt anyone. I am here to get help with my writing, and maybe give a little help to others if I can. So now maybe I can try it again. Thanks for sharing this.

    ~Tawnya~

  • DisEnchantedFantasy
    June 3, 2006
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    Thank you for this. I have always been afraid that my comments were repetitive and I am sure I have benefited from reading your column.

  • pine-needles
    June 3, 2006
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    wow. u laid this out so clearly and articulately. i think this will help me grow as a critiquer and maybe encourage others to leave critical comments and not just take the easy way out because they feelthey arent qualified. u express things so perfectly and approachably. thank u for putting the effort to remind us all how to be encouraging but also encourage growth. wonderful job!
  • Frodofan silver member
    June 3, 2006
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    Great column here. A lot of people ARE confused and I hope you can clarify some of them with this.

  • ILTL4eva7
    June 3, 2006
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    Great post! While I can't say I always give a critical comment, I usually try to at least make the comment personal, to set it apart from the "great job!" and "I love it!" comments that seem to abound nowadays. However, I'm hesistant to mark my poetry, especially the personal pieces, for a critical comment. It's far too easy to get ripped apart in a critique, because many people don't know how to be critical and remain helpful and encouraging. I hope a lot of people read this column--you've included useful suggestions and alternatives, so that -hopefully- people will feel more comfortable giving and receiving critiques... I know I will. Thank you for posting!

    ~Kelsey

  • Hadji Murad
    June 3, 2006
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    This is a very awesome column which I am sure will help me. A lot of poets have seemed to have been turned away by my blatant bluntness. If I don't like something I'm going to tell you and it seems a lot of poets, well, aren't used to such criticism. I'm constructive yes and I do outline what they did well and I always offer suggestions to recover the poem unless it was so desperately despondent which it cannot be salvaged in which case I still offer guidance for the author. I am sure this column will help me a little more though before poets want me ostracized from Allpoetry.

    Thank you for the time you took writing this, this is a very brilliant and intriguing write.

  • R S Adams Jr silver member
    June 3, 2006
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    helful, informative

    Jamie,

    You have written a very useful article. Thank you.

    I enjoy the critique of others.

    Feedback on my thoughts may be useful to you..

    I do assesss the helpful comments and I pay attention to the negative. I look at them as opinion and assess the usefulness of each.

    I enjoy being a critical of the poems of others, but I do so humbly, not considering myself anywhere near an expert. I also realize that much of it is opinion.

    The type of citique which upsets me, is that where the person goes over board and slashes me to pieces with indepth, semantic overload. I file these comments in my rubbish bin. If I get really negative comments, then I check that person's poems. I never delete comments.

    I nearly always reply by going to that person's poems and doing a reply critique. It is a learning curve for both of us.

    I do suspect the value of some over positive comments which appear sugar coated.

    Having said all of that, I am wary of giving critique sometimes. Not because of a negative reply, which I ignore, but because I feel sometimes that the poet is much better than I am and 'who am I' to comment. I feel unworthy to make comment because I feel that I am in the shade. Your article makes me realise that other people do accept critiques with some reserve and I feel more comfortable now.

  • Swordfish
    June 3, 2006
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    This is very helpful, since I'm new here. I'm really glad you wrote this. I've always been afraid when I'm trying to critique someone on anything that I'm too blunt and honest, but not constructive enough. Although I don't think I have enough experience with poetry to start critiquing just yet...but I'll keep this in mind. Oh - and of course I am always open to an honest critique
    This will definitely be very useful. Take care.
    Aleksi
  • verses on flesh
    June 3, 2006
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    I agree, Jess. A lot of it depends on how it is said, and how the writer feels about their own piece personally. As well as the frame of mind both the writer and reader are in when they are interacting.

    There are a lot of different ways to approach corrections or suggestions for people's writes, but I have always felt the delivery of that information is the most vital part.

    -hugs- Thank you so much for the read and the comment.

    jamie

  • -ButterflyCuts-
    June 3, 2006
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    Very useful thankyou
    I think half the problem of giving critcal critiques is the way, even properly done ones, are sometimes received. Thats what makes me hesitant to give them, unless specifically asked.

    jess
  • verses on flesh
    June 3, 2006
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    Thank you Will, for such a great comment. I really appreciate it. And I am with you. I am not here to get published. My goal in life is not to be a writer, this for me is an outlet. But I have many opinions and I like to share them often so I can make room for new ones. lol.

    I have mixed feelings though on seeking only the council of editors and professionals. While they are accomplished in their tasks, they are not your target audience. The benefit of being somewhere like AP, with so many different types of peopleand such diverse opinions is that you really see how your work is perceived by all walks of life. There are some professional editors and even some publishers I know are members here. But the thing about having a poem published is that it is all based on the opinion of the people you are targeting. Much like contests here. To win a contest, you not only need to fullfil the requirements of the contest, but should also look into the favorites, and a writings of the holder. It teaches one to stylize according to whos attention they want.

    I feel there are a lot of valuable lessons such as this all over websites like this and others, it is just all how the situations are perceived and used to the benefit of the writer.

    I am always sad to see someone give a harsh and unconstructive critique to someone. I think it is always underserving. While I may not particularly enjoy all the pieces submitted to this site, I am very capable of following the golden rule of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." I can think of a few right off hand I would love to follow this. Though, these people, in the end will be everywhere that we go and in every aspect of our lives.

    Everyone's a critc.

    Again, I thank you for your comment, and for coming by to read this.

    jamie

  • AgeofAquarius
    June 3, 2006
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    X

    Excellent Jamie... I have wanted to say something exactly like this about critiquing but YOU have found the words. I have no grand delusions of being famous from AP, I enjoy the cathartic expulsions and feedback from others experience that's what writing here does for me.

    I have seen people I invited to write and map their OWN conscious journey here shutdown from rude, harsh comments though. Certain ones who will remain unnamed get their rocks off an being a *ick.

    I think if youre aspiring to be professional AP would not be FIRST choice, there's a plethora of workshops @ universities throughout the US( some are free) where there's editors and prof. writers with super directive feedback. I attended one in San Luis Obispo that was awesome and great focus, but thats NOT why I write..

    I appreciate consructive criticism seasoned with tact as you describe here...Well phrased and eloquent!!
  • verses on flesh
    June 3, 2006
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    Thank you, Puppydog, I really appreciate it.

    jamie

  • Puppydog gold member
    June 3, 2006
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    Well done!
  • verses on flesh
    June 3, 2006
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    Sadly, Yvette, in opening ourselves to critique, it also opens us up to tactless ridicule. So many speak before they think, or just simply do not care. These people really should be taken with a grain of salt. Consider the face they have shown to you before considering the value of their opinion.

    Often times featuring a work in the hopes of getting comments can be disappointing. From talking to a lot of people around the board I have found a lot of people who could and would give thoughful and helpful critiques do not because of one or two bad experiences.

    Not everyone will take our suggestions or opinions well. And we also must understand that in the end it is up to the writer to decide what they are trying to say and how best to express it.

    I have in several instances had people completely disect a very personal writ